Upgrade Question for 454?

[Siddhi]

Hey guys,
I was curious about something. I have a standard 454 7.4l in my convincor. I have a TRS drive and a Borg Warner Trans. Everything is stock as far as I can tell and the guy that owned it before me said it is stock. I was wondering what upgrades should I do for the best reliability and to make some HP gains. I will not be able to do all the upgrades at once so an idea of my best bang for the buck and in what order would be great. I tried to do a search but it did not come back with anything like I was looking for. So I thought I would start a topic about it. This is only my second I/O so I am learning. I am a 2 stroke nut mostly. coming from the motocross industry I understand them very well. These 4 strokes and inboards all all new to me.

Also I will be using this boat offshore and in the Gulf so that is why I am concerned with it being more bullit proof. I know I should be able to pull out some more ponies and keep it fairly reliable. It runs pretty good as it is but like all of us guys alittle faster never hurts. Thanks in advance for the info!
Adios,
-Siddhi

[JUPITER PULSARE]

Alot depends upon whether the motor is a 7.4 330hp with cast components or a 454 Magnum/365 hp with forged components. There is not much you can do to the 330 hp motor without changing out alot of internals. The 365 hp motor with 4 bolt main and forged components can be dialed up quite a bit...blowers, prochargers, headers, carbs, cams, etc.

[mboger]

you can procharge a 330 horse 454 i have had mine on for three years and havent had a problem with 5lbs of boost

[Siddhi]

Yeah, I am pretty sure it is the 330hp. Well I guess it will be an engine upgrade. What would you guys recommend? My friend was telling me that I could put the 496 in it and it would bolt right up and would give me a pretty good jump in HP. I might go that route! What are the opinions with this engine choice. My hull is a 1982 if that makes any difference.
Thanks,
-Barry

[happy]

I run in the gulf too.. outta houston.. Where are you located??? Another option is to stroke your current 454.. a nice set up would be about a quater stroke on the crank, should bring your 454 to a 496, some cam options, carb, intake option could bring this engine into the 600hp range pretty easy. We are tinkering with this engine build at the moment.. should go to dyno in a month or so..

The neet thing about the 496 upgrade, is its new technology, and from what i've seen, they are tough engines, and not breaking. our shop has wippled quite a few of the 496 packages, and running strong.

So pretty much it going to come down to the budgett.. 496's arn't cheap, good luck and let me know how i can help

[jrumon]

The 330 is a base GM light truck duty 454...
2 bolt main block
cast iron crank
standad 3/8" rods
cast aluminum pistons
oval port heads
small valves

It is a great torque motor, but RPM is it's enemy! You CAN get good power out of them, but if you run them hard, it will not last! A supercharger is really not recommended for these light duty motors, although it has been done with LOW boost (3-4psi).

The biggest area your motor lacks is breathing... the heads are OK to 5000 rpm, but the stock intake and cam can go!
#1. Do you have thru-hull exhaust and if so what SIZE is it??? You MUST have it if you want any type of exhaust flow!!! Some of the older boats used restrictine 3" thru-hull fittings... they are way better than thru-prop only stuff, but for MAX flow, upgrade to a set of 4" stuff.
#2. Use an Edlebrock RPM for a quadrajet (stck 330 carb). The intake works excellent in the marine powerband needs and you loose a good 25lbs off the back of your boat. Good for about 15hp over stock!
#3. Cam & lifters change... run a performance marine cam that will have the rpm range 3000-6000. You will NOT be running your motor that high, but tat cam will peak in power at about 5000 which is exactly what you want. You can expect a good 25hp over stock!
#4. Exhaust manifolds change... swap them out for a set of stainless marine or similar higher-flowing manifolds... they are also good for 10-15hp over stock (at 5000 rpm), and again, lighten the back of your boat by a good 40-50lbs! You must have the larger 4" thru-hull exhaust tips to run these.

It is not cheap... but you CAN gain a good 50-60 horsepower and usually about 5mph over stock. Your TRS drive & trans are bullet-proof, but it is heavy and does such up some power to move all those big parts! Dollar for dollar, your best bang for the buck is finding a clean used 502 Magnum and swapping motors... then selling your take-out 330 to recover some of the cost.

[Siddhi]

Hey Happy,
I am out of St. Marks, Fl. (Tallahassee area). Yeah I think that would be plenty for what I want. I am not really looking to get a ton more speed. Actually I think I am having a running issue as it is. I finally got my GPS on the boat and I am only getting 41.3-42.5 trimmed. My rpms are only getting up to around 3,800 at full trim. With that engine and hull setup what should be normal for me? I believe the carb cover says 4,440 rpm is max. The guy before me said that he was getting around 58mph but I am not sure if that is true or not. Also I am not sure if that was gps or not either. I do know he did not use the boat for at least a year to a year and a half. It is a carb motor and I am thinking that maybe it is a dirty carb and old gas. He did go out every couple of weeks and run the motor on the hose. But that will only keep the low speed jets clean. And it cranks and runs great down low. At WOT I do not get any ill effects and it seems like it is running pretty good. No skips or anything but I wonder about the low rpm range I am getting and the low speed. I would think I should at least see 50mph or so with that setup. What do you guys think? Any direction would be awesome!
Adios,
-Barry

[Siddhi]

Thanks Jrumon,
Yeah it does have the 4" exhaust and it is thru hull. I am pretty sure the tips are also 4" I do not see any restrictions from the manifolds making it smaller.

What is a Edlebrock rpm? Also a friend has some really nice exhaust manifolds I am not sure what brand but he has a Cigarette and he just upgrade his motors and exhaust so I might have a line on some parts. He builds race motors for boats and Drag cars and he has a dyno and stuff. He does really good work and that is what his business is. He says it would work perfect for me with what I have. So maybe I will check into those. I will find out what they are and post them and the price he is giving me on them and see if it would be a wise choice. Thanks!
-Barry

[jrumon]

Siddhi...
The Edlebrock Performer RPM is about $200 new. For your motor it would be for oval port heads and Q-Jet carb (if your keepin the stock carb).... www.summitracing.com (http://www.summitracing.com)
The stock 454 cast iron exhaust has VERY RESTRICTIVE runners and the elbows are even worse!!! You have a 4" hose connecting them to the tips, but under that hose is a very lame 2"-2 1/4" exhaust outlet surrounded by the water jacket.
If your buddy has a set of the Gil exhaust from the HP motors... grab a set! It's about a $1200 upgrade to buy new ones (used about $500).

[jrumon]

Something I forgot to add after reading how it's running now...

#1. Compression check all 8...
#2. Check timing... initial and what it's total is at 3000rpm???
#3. Fresh fuel!!!
#4. Clean carb...

[jrumon]

Woops... after reading your other post...

You need to do some testing on your current motor for sure... something is "sick"... You can do one at a time until you find the cause:

#1. Compression test on all 8
#2. Check timing at idel and 3000 rpm (you may have the wrong ignitin module or no advance).
#3. Check cap, rotor, wires, plugs and replace as needed.
#4. Check ignition coil... low output can be weak spark and cause lame power.
#5. Fresh fuel... old gas can be like running it on iced tea!
#6. Fresh fuel filter... may be staving for gas?
#7. Fuel pump pressure... may be starving for fuel?
#8. Clean carb (rebuild), and set float level...
#9. Flame arrestor... clean & inspect.
#10. Valve adjustment... check that they are adjusted correctly.
#11. Check the prop... does it have the right pitch??? Your boat should be running a 19p-21p if I remember correctly. Idealy, you should be able to pull 4500rpm with the prop you choose on the stock motor.

Hope this helps... http://www.checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/thumb.gif Jim.

[Siddhi]

Yeah that does help a lot. Thanks for the info. I am leaning towards the fuel and carb cleaning. But I will check the compression, plug, wires, and rotor and cap as well. Like I said the boat did sit for awhile and I am sure it just needs some tlc. Plus the boat did run well for the last owner so I would imagine the correct prop is on there, but it never hurts to make sure. As far as valves what type of adjustment is it (screw tappet, shim? I have not done too much auto engines. All my experience is in the motorcycle industry) and does anyone happen to know what they should be set to. I did not think to check this either. I guess I need to take a day and just do some serious going over. I guess in my excitement to get her on the water and after doing the floor, carpet, and gimble housing I was just hoping to go for a ride. Patience has never been my strong trait! heh heh!!

Well thanks for the info and I will get to work on checking it all out. Thanks you have been a great help Jrumon!
-Barry

[happy]

i just re-read my post from this am... sorry for the confusion..

you can take an old 330 hp 454/ and stroke it to a 496... the new technology section.. was based on the new 496.. not the 330 hp 454... sorry for my bad explination..

[jrumon]

Siddhi...
Glad I could give you a few things to look into. As far as valve adjustment, it is a hyd. cam & lifter set-up. If you haven't done one, think about a manual (any 70's-80's automotive or truck manual with a 454 will work) or your car buddy can help out.

Basically here it is:
...pull the coil wire OFF before doing this...
#1. Rotate the motor until the cam lobe/lifter is fully DOWN for that one valve you want to adjust.
#2. You then tighten the rocker arm nut just until you have zero lash then add another 3/4 of a full turn (check a manual for your exact amount)... and thats it for that valve!
#3. Do the same for all 16 valves...

The important part is making sure the lifter is FULLY DOWN before you adjust the rocker arm!!! >If you have a "loose" one, the valve will NOT open fully and you will loose power or at extreme cases possibly blow a head gasket if the exhaust valve doesn't open.
>If you have a "tight" one, the valve may not close all the way and burn the valve or at worse case, the valve can possibly hit the piston top and cause all sorts of nasty!

Not to scare you off, just make sure you take the time to do it correctly... use a wax marker to check off each rocker as you go. Check, check, and recheck again... its easy to do!

Keep us posted on how it goes! Jim.

[vinny p.]

I have seen many people adjust hydraulic lifters the way jrumon has described. It is not a bad way to do it, but I have found there can be a problem with that method. The problem lies with having the lifters pump out their oil before getting to adjust that particular lifter because you crank the motor over so many times. True that the oil pump is turning, but not much oil gets to the lifter galley. I have found a better way , but you need an old cut up distributor to do it. You have to make a good oil pump priming tool out of it. Those primers that are sold are junk. They only prime the crank and oil pump, not the lifters. First thing, pull all the plugs and distributor. Put your cut up distributor/priming tool in. Turn the motor over by hand until the lifter you are adjusting is on the cams base circle. Turn that priming tool with a drill for a bit getting oil into that lifter. Now adjust that rocker. Do this for all 16 valves. This way you are 100% sure that lifter is adjusted, it will be full of oil.

[jrumon]

Vinny... very good point! It is best to make sure the lifters ARE filled with oil before adjusting valves! You CAN also just buy an oil pump primer shaft instead of cutting up and old distributor....$25 at any auto speed shop.

Another way to do it (poor mans way):
#1. back off all the rockers (not fully removing them so you dont drop a pushrod)
#2. pull the coil wire and remove the spark plugs.
#3. crank the motor over for 10-15 seconds to pump up the lifters
#4. do the adjustment as I outlined before.

One other thought, if you plan of changing the intake, do the valve adjustment when it's appart... it's WAY EASIER to SEE EVERYTHING!!!

[vinny p.]

jrumon,

Yes, I agree. This type works well..

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=oil+prime...target=egnsearch.asp (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=oil+primer&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp)

This is junk..

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=oil+prime...target=egnsearch.asp (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=oil+primer&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp)

[vinny p.]

That didnt work. Lets try again.

part # mor-62200 is junk..

part # pro-66896 is ok.

[Siddhi]

Thanks guys,
I am in class for my captians license so that is why I have not been on in a couple of days. Wow, seems like a process to adjust the valves. I guess I have to pull the distributor and then I can put the primer pump in the distributor hole. I will be in class everyday this week and the weekend so I might not be able to get to the valves. I did buy a carb rebuild kit and I took off the carb this past weekend. I did notice that it looks like it has an electronic choke & solenoid. But there was not any electrical connections to it. The butterfly for the choke was closed. I have not run the motor with the spark arrestor off so I am not sure if this opens on it's on after the motor is started. If it does not then it is choking the entire time the motor is running and that could have been my running problem. I checked all the linkages and I did not see anything that would machanically open the choke butterfly. Well I will post my findings as soon I get a chance to get back on it. next week for sure. As for now Rules of the road here I come! heh heh!!
-Barry

[Redboat]

I use these when I lash my hydraulic lifters , they work great .
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryD...ryId=10709&langId=-1 (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=18531&parentCategoryId=10709&langId=-1)
Redboat

[bowtie]

Hate to come in here and step on toes, but as you know everyone has there own way of doing things. I will say that if the valve adjustment is done correctly with new lifters (or lifters not pumped up) the valvetrain will clatter for a few seconds once it is running until the lifters get pumped up. If the motor is primed without the valves adjusted (lifters get pumped up) and then adjusted correctly, the motor will run like crap and most likely backfire a few times until the lifters get bled back down. In your case this may not cause a lot of problems, but in some case with aftermarket pistons and large hydraulic camshafts this can also lead to valve to piston interference problems. The reason is the lifters will actually be holding the valves open and prevent them from seating until the oil in the lifters bleeds out. Of course this is not really a problem for those than run their hydraulic lifters with nearly zero preload, but for a stock setup that is not what you want to do. If you really want to know the best procedure for valve adjustments, check the Crane or Comp websites for their recommendations. Just remember that when they say feel some resistance, they are referring to a slight resistance, not that you can no longer twist the pushrod.

[vinny p.]

I will say that if the valve adjustment is done correctly with new lifters (or lifters not pumped up) the valvetrain will clatter for a few seconds once it is running until the lifters get pumped up. If the motor is primed without the valves adjusted (lifters get pumped up) and then adjusted correctly, the motor will run like crap and most likely backfire a few times until the lifters get bled back down


What???? If you adjust the lifters correctly after filling the lifters with oil, the motor will run like crap and backfire?? Are you thinking that the lifters will hold a valve open because it is filled with oil?

[bowtie]

[/QUOTE]


What???? If you adjust the lifters correctly after filling the lifters with oil, the motor will run like crap and backfire?? Are you thinking that the lifters will hold a valve open because it is filled with oil?[/QUOTE]

That is correct. If the motor is primed without any preload on the lifters the lifter bodies will fill with oil while the plunger is at rest against the top retaining clip, then when you adjust the valve and run the nut down to get your additional 1/2 - 1 turn of preload it will take a bit for the lifters to bleed back down. Like I said though, if you are not running any preload (zero lash) or very little preload, or if you are running a variable duration/bleed down style lifter (Rhoads,etc) then this would not be a problem. If you have ever adjusted a hyd lifter while it is running you will notice the same thing, but since it is only 1 valve at a time it is not as obvious... when you loosen the rocker until it makes noise, then start to snug it down until it goes quiet, then when you add the extra turn of preload the engine will get rough and idle down for several seconds and then smooth out and idle back up. By the way, I do not endorse adjusting them while it is running, especially if you have never done it before.

[Siddhi]

Wow, I must say I am a little confused as to what I need to do. I was talking to my friend and he was saying that they normally do not come out of adjustment unless there is a problem to with a rocker nut backing off or something. He was telling me that if the motor sat for anytime that the stock exhaust has a tendency to leave water siting on the valves or something like that. He said it sounds like to him that it is a stuck valve and that I should check that first. I am not sure about the valves at this moment. I might not mess with them and see if everything else will make it better first. What do you guys think? Does the stuck valve sound like a possibility? Should I go ahead and adjust the valves. What has people seen over the years in reguards to them coming out of adjustment? Well thanks for the advice.
-Barry

[jrumon]

Siddhi...
Forget the valve issue for now!
Go back to my post on March 3rd and LOOK at the 11 steps. Start at step #1 and work your way down the list... use the process of elimination and FORGET the valve adjustment for now (chances are that it is NOT your problem anyway)!!!
It's probably just something simple... http://www.checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/thumb.gifJim.

[Siddhi]

Thanks Jrumon,
That is what I had planned to do anyway. I did buy new plugs, fuel filter and carb rebuild kit. I have not had time to do anything yet but My first step will be to check compression and rebuild the carb if that turns out fine. I am pretty sure that the compression will be ok but you never know. Then I plan to check the timing. After I do all that I plan to take her out and see what happens again. So thanks for the advice and I will post my findings soon!
-Barry

[vinny p.]

Bowtie,
Nothing unusual here, again I dont agree with you. I am not going to hijack Siddhi thread discussing differences of opinion. If you want to discuss this here, start a thread on valve adjustments, and I will participate.

[Anthem of the Sun]

I have the exact same set up in a 1982 22 Donzi Classic. It's in incredible shape. It runs 57.5 mph with a 24" three blade Turbo prop at 4700 rpm.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7171/0d3small7ma.jpg

[happy]

hey anthem... did you notice the rust stains along the side of your stainless risers???? << get that checked out soon... so you don't lose your engine over that...