E-TEC talk

[Boston Predictor]

Okay I've been hearing alot of hoopla about these Mercury Verados. From what I understand they are big heavy gas guzzeling 4- strokes. To me it seems that Evinrude's 2 stroke E-Tec are untouchable and in a class of their own, but yet I rarely see anybody mention them.
Why would you buy any other motor when you could have E-tec?
The E-tec is cleaner and quieter, more effitient, Built with more quality, Durability and reliability and not to mention they are 2 STROKES which means more power!

Here are some Facts I pulled off the BPR Evinrude Website:

EASY TO OWN AND OPERATE Evinrude E-TEC outboards require no scheduled dealer maintenance - that's right, zero - for the first three years or 300 hours of normal recreational use. Not even gearcase lube. You'll never have to change the oil or the oil filter, which can cost several hundred dollars each year for other technologies.
CLEANER & QUIETER. With a fully stratified combustion system, Evinrude E-TEC outboards are designed to comply with 2006 EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) as well as tough 2006 EU (European Union) standards well into the future. E-TEC even meets the ultra-low 2008 CARB (California Air Resource Board) 3-Star emissions rating. For you, it simply means a cleaner boating environment: no smoke and dramatically lower carbon monoxide emissions.

With the E-TEC system, fuel is injected twice as fast as traditional direct injection engines and unburned fuel never reaches the exhaust port. This means the fuel charge never escapes the combustion chamber as it is burned and turned into pure power. E-TEC also senses when to change fuel delivery into the chamber, depending on engine needs, resulting in precision fuel flow and extreme fuel efficiency. The sealed fuel system also minimizes evaporative emissions. And finally, no more pre-mixing fuel and oil thanks to the E-TEC auto-lube oiling system.

And then there's the E-TEC signature sound. The exclusive E-TEC idle air bypass circuit, acoustically tuned air intake and exhaust silencers and state of the art acoustic foam lining combine for an incredibly quiet engine that hums like nothing else on the water.

Evinrude E-TEC uses up to 75% less than typical 2-stroke carbureted engines and up to 50% less oil than competitive direct injection engines (when run with Evinrude/Johnson XD 100T oil with optional dealer programming of the Engine Management Module, versus normal TCW3 oil). And you'll use 30% less oil compared to a 4-stroke with a typical maintenance schedule under normal operating conditions.

That's just the start. The Evinrude E-TEC engines use an exclusive low friction design. There are no belts, no chains, no powerhead gears, no cams, and no mechanized oil pumps.

Evinrude E-TEC engines have all three, with robust, oversized motor components throughout for longer engine life. And they're not just big. They're super tough. In fact, our pistons are 2.5 times stronger than traditional pistons at operating temperatures, thanks to a new patented NASA alloy.

One more thing: If you live in a colder climate, you know all about winterizing. Our program for the winter or long term storage? Follow a few easy steps that will take just minutes. Then put it away. Maintenance? Forget about it.

In addition, all Evinrude E-TEC outboards feature the S.A.F.E. TM (Speed Adjusting Failsafe Electronics) information and alarm system, which reduces engine rpm in case of emergency to prevent engine damage and protect your investment.

Power & Performance. With a fully stratified combustion system, Evinrude E-TEC offers unsurpassed fuel economy, especially at low speeds. At higher speeds, the Engine Management Module (EMM), making up to 8 million calculations per second, delivers precisely the right amount of fuel directly into the combustion chamber for every load and condition.

The lightweight design of the Evinrude E-TEC increases performance and boat handling, while its large displacement provides more horsepower and torque. This combination of light weight and high torque makes E-TEC accelerate faster and achieve higher top speeds than any other outboard engine in its class.
When you consider the fact that the 2-stroke Evinrude E-TEC produces a power stroke every revolution and it doesn't have the added complexity of belts, camshafts, valves, timing chains and oil pumps that add weight and rob power and torque it's easy to understand why 2>4.

I just want to know what the experts have to say about this new breed of O.B.'s.

[Chris]

I remember when the FICHT engine was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread too. Time proved it was another engine with good points and bad.

I think many people are selling the Optimax short. It's a pretty decent engine too. And it's a little more proven at this point then the ETEC. And the technology is similar to the ETEC.

I think where the 4 Strokes are in trouble, is in the emissions department. Without a catalytic converter, the emissions end up being higher than the ETEC. So until a usable outboard catalytic converter is developed, the 4 Strokes will be at a disadvantage to the HPDI engines in the emissions department.

Time will tell on the ETEC, time will tell. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Boston Predictor]

Here is some interesting info on FICHT and Optimax
http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/boating/1276841.html?page=2&c=y
http://www.theboatingnews.com/0501_mercur_pulls.htm
The ETEC is looking pretty good http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Boston Predictor]

Originally posted by Chris:

Time will tell on the ETEC, time will tell. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You say that like you know something about ETEC that we dont know. http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/sssh.gif http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[JW]

For performance boats, on every test I've seen so far, the Mercury Opti will out-run the same horsepower ETEC. Merc has a better lower unit for REAL fast boats, and a slightly better top end out of the motor.

[Boston Predictor]

which costs more the optimax or Etec?

[Boston Predictor]

Here is some more info on the subject...
http://www.epinions.com/boat-Motors-All-Evinrude_225_HP/display_~reviews (http://www.epinions.com/boat-Motors-All-Evinrude_225_HP/display_%7Ereviews)
http://www.epinions.com/content_101776723588

[Chris]

Originally posted by Boston Predictor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris:

Time will tell on the ETEC, time will tell. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You say that like you know something about ETEC that we dont know. http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/sssh.gif http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I know of a prototype that didn't fair too well. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think it was a 75 and it was tested by someone I know in a commercial application the year before they released this particular model. But in fairness, that's why you test. So that's why I say, time will tell.

[Boston Predictor]

What Engine do you guys recomend for a Starflite hull in terms of overall function, HP and price??

[fnshrmaster]

All the rental pontoons at our Bayou are running E-tecs.They are great on oil consumption,quiet and perform great.I am a Mercury man to the end but those E-tecs are hard to beat.Lets wait and see how the bigger models perform.

[F150GT]

It all comes down to a popularity contest, look at all the die hard Merc people here. I personaly hate Evenrud's, I had a couple bad expieriences with older ones and wouldnt risk my $18K on a new one. I wouldnt buy a Merc either, I'm a Yamaha man. It takes a lot of pull to change a person from what they like to something new that there not familure with. I think it will take the E-tech a long time to catch on in the high horsepower & performance market due to peoples dedication to the line they like.
E-tech will most likly be very popular on the smaller fishing boat and pontoon boat market because of there reliability, pricing and fuel millage. Also many of those buyers dont have a long history or love for a piticular manufacturer.
my 2 cents
F150GT

[Boston Predictor]

Thanks for the input guys your comments are apreatiated.
F150 you are right on about personal Biases. I've Been asking everybody and they all say the same thing...stay away from OMC. Personally I am a Merc guy all the way and always have been but I have owned many Evinrude's and old sea horses over the years and quite frankly other than the occasional bad start up, they seemed like they would have run forever!

[jrumon]

OK, I was always a Merc man but the T-TEC is killer...!!! http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/bounce.gif
Not a single 4-stroke can compare and it puts EVERY 2-stroke way behind in technology... this is the BEST of all motors in every aspect with the exception of maybe $$$$$.

MY EXPERIENCE:
We upgraded my buddies bass boat last spring from a 2000 Evinrude 225 Ficht Ram (only 1200 hours!) to a 2005 225 E-TEC. The ficht was a great motor, but there is no comparison on how refined and tuned these new E-TEC's are! You have to experience one for yourself; smoothness, throttle response, zero smoke, gobs of torque and pulls like a banshee to 6000+rpm. He has 250+ hours on it now and not a single issue... ZERO!!! The optimax's are not nearly the motor (or reliability), and the ONLY thing even close that I have ran is the 225 Honda (but it's a dog as compared to weight and performance of the new E-TEC).

You have to step back and look WHO the parent company is for E-TEC... Bombarier... makers of all sorts of high-tech trains, planes, aere-space, etc.! These things have some of the TOP Research & Development in them... Gone and I mean G-O-N-E are the old OMC everything! These are fresh slate motors using the best of the best from the drawing board all the way through final production and quality control. Look at the warrentee and service intervials and you will see they stand behind them 100% plus! I think some people are scared because of how bad the OMC screwed things up, and these are 100% NOT omc motors or production any longer. In fact, you WILL see more of this type of E-TEC design as the competition STEALS the engineering!

On another note, Evinrude my be releasing the 300HO E-TEC soon... http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/sssh.gif
complete with the "second effort" style performance lower units! Look out Yamaha 300 HPDI and Merc 300X, this one aims to shame!

Now if they could only get the price down..... http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/brickwall.gif
I need TWO of them for my 26' Cat.... http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/devil.gif

[Boston Predictor]

Okay thats what I wanted to hear! thanks. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

The reason I brought this subject up is because I think the Etec's are being sold short by the performance boaters, the die hard Merc fellas http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As you just mentioned, bombarier has basically redesigned the whole working mechanics of the engine which is revolutionary in marine standards so These 2 Stroke engines with this new technology are not anything to dismiss. Evinrude has reached a new plateu, They are no longer on the same plane as before. As the river of time flows onward we will be seeing this more of this technology in ALL outboards.
These are not the old smoking OMC's or four strokes with hundreds of parts

BTW Jim, can you elaborate on the 300HO?? that motor should divide the champions from the rest.

Where the heck is Brian? He has a nice 200HO on his Enchanter. I'm sure he could share some stories

[Mark]

I'm with F150GT on this one. I too have owned everything and nothing is as tough as a Yamaha 2-stroke. These days I am guessing there is not much seperating the big 3 thou. If I had the coin I would do a Yamaha 250 HPDI on a Starflite. Here is a great side by side on the 250's. You decide! http://www.bassandwalleyeboats.com/output.cfm?id=943489

[Boston Predictor]

Somebody should test the Etec, Optimax and Yamaha on a pulsare...that would settle it http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Chris]

Keep in mind when you compare a Yamaha with a Merc the redlines are different. If Merc set their redlines where Yamaha does, they'd probably be bullet-proof too.

Also, Bombardier no longer owns the recreational products division. So this is not the same company that builds planes and trains. BRP was spun off and sold to a consortium of the original Bombardier family and some investors a few years after Bombardier bought OMC.

[Boston Predictor]

Even if thats the case they are still leading the industry in recreational products in all categories. Take the new ATV, outlander 800 for example. It uses new technology in it drive system that is un matched by any other. I beleive it also has a revolutionary suspension system.
Here is some background info from the site:


Innovation Delivering Passion

Ever since J.-A. Bombardier founded the company in 1942, our name has been synonymous with quality and creativity. His pioneering spirit is a legacy that has kept us growing and exploring new frontiers. Today, in the Americas, Europe and Asia-Pacific, almost 7,500 people are keeping the Bombardier spirit alive in all of our recreational vehicles and products.

At Bombardier Recreational Products, innovation and passion are at the heart of our commitment, our products, and our brands. Whether it be our Sea-Doo watercraft and sport boats; our Ski-Doo® and Lynx® snowmobiles; our Rotax® karts and engines; our Bombardier ATVs and utility vehicles or our Evinrude® and Johnson® outboard engines, these values come alive through technology and design, inspired by a single and common compelling mission: to deliver to consumers the most extraordinary recreational experience.

www.brp.com/en-CA/Company/Our.History/ (http://www.brp.com/en-CA/Company/Our.History/)

[Chris]

I'm not dissing them. Just pointing out it isn't the same company. Hey they're Canadians! And they're also a company that have gone bankrupt, then taken over, then sold in a short period of time.

I also had a look at the Yammi site and it looks like they've bumped up their redlines from the typical 5500 max they used to set. Most are up near 6K. So let's see how they hold up under the higher loads.

[Boston Predictor]

I always liked the yammi's. when I was looking for motors I almost bought a Vmax 175, but lost the bid in the last few min of the auction http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I guess It turned out for the best cuz otherwise I wouldnt have my Black Max. That motor has more power than any other motor I've used! I love it. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
One underlying reason for me bringing this topic up is that I plan on buying a starflite soon and I don't know what motor I should get. I am looking for just a hull in any condition.
I would prefer a motor that wont suck up gas as bad as my current motoe does but still give me 80mph. I am thinking about Etec, but I may go with a Optimax...I still have some reaserch to do. http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/beer1.gif

[Chris]

What's the difference in prices?

[Boston Predictor]

between the Vmax and the Black max?
or what I want to spend for the starflite mota?

[Chris]

Sorry, I meant the prices of the motahs!

[Mark]

I also had a look at the Yammi site and it looks like they've bumped up their redlines from the typical 5500 max they used to set. Most are up near 6K. So let's see how they hold up under the higher loads.

Right you are Chris, Yamaha bumped most of the rated RPM to 6000 and they did not make any changes to the motors. This was where most guys with the big ones ran them anyway. In my experience it is not just the powerhead but seals, mounts, etc. that last longer. On the other hand I know of one guy that lost 3 powerheads in a row with his new HDPI. So there is no real bulletproof motor.

[Chris]

The Merc 250XS is rated for 6,300 though. http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/devil.gif

Good for Yammi though. They obviously listened to their customers. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/thumb.gif

[Boston Predictor]

Originally posted by Chris:
What's the difference in prices?

Chris, The Yamaha that I lost went for just under $4,500. So the same day I called an old boater friend. He just happend to have a freshly built 150 which was perfect for the predictor so I offered him 2k, and he sold it to me right on the spot. The motor was on his MX-15 but was way too big.

[F150GT]

They should of droped the Evinrude name and changed it to Bombadier or something new.

[jrumon]

F150GT...
I totally AGREE with the NAME CHANGE...
I think the "Evinrude" brings about many negitives and the ONLY thing on these E-TEC's carried over is the NAME.

Bombardier, Sea-Doo, Rotax, or ????? would be a better seller!

[Chris]

I have no problem with the name.

But the fact remains that OMC were having financial troubles and built some out of date, poorly built crap. And a number of people felt burnt by them. So it's going to take a bit of time for them to regain people's trust. To me if the ETEC holds up, for the first time in a long time, perhaps ever, JohnnyRude will have a motah that might be equal or perhaps (gasp) even superior to Merc. But these motors have to hold up. One or two years isn't enough. And in the meantime Merc is most likely working hard to bring out something even better than what they have now.

So, time will tell. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Boston Predictor]

I hope Merc comes out with a "super" motor. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[jrumon]

Chris... I sure hope your right... With new technology usually comes de-bugging time. OMC had issues with their first gen ficht motors, Merc had issues with the first OPTI's as well, Yamaha had cam issues with their first 4-strokes. Ironically, Honda and Suzuki had nothing as far as I'm aware of, and for a fresh "all-new" technology, the ETEC is performing above standards as well.

OK MERC GUY'S (and trust me I am a Merc man at heart) Merc surely DIDN'T get the VERADO right... Too BIG, too HEAVY, and a big of appetite for PREMIUM FUEL ONLY!!! Heck, most marina's sell only 89 octane stuff around me... so making a motor thats NEEDS premium fuel all the time to stay "healthy" sure wasn't a wise choice for most average boater needs!!!

I have driven two Verado's (a 200 and a 275). The boats were ass heavy from the added weight for sure, and yes, they are silk smooth and quiet, but Merc has a lot of technology there and not any more "proven" than an e-tec yet. In fact, both of the motors I had the chance to experence had issues... the 200 went down twice for electronics problems, and the 275 ate the powerhead after something with the supercharger/intercooler let go and seized the motor after 20ish hours.... so that's "O for 2" on the Verado's that I know of.

None, and I mean NONE of the E-TEC's around me have had so much as a "sneeze" and my buddies 225 ETEC was once of the first ones according to the production date and has now logged 250+hours over last boating season with ZERO problems... not even a set of plugs yet (they still looked liked new at winterizing)!

Maybe we can PAINT them E-TEC's BLACK to make everyone feel better! http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/lol.gif

[Boston Predictor]

Originally posted by jrumon:
Maybe we can PAINT them E-TEC's BLACK to make everyone feel better! http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/lol.gif
http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif thats funny, Maybe just Put some Mercury stickers on the sides and nobody will know the diffrence. Aesteticly I think the Etec's have the coolest design anyways. The new midnight blue etec's especially

[F150GT]

Re decal it "MERC EATER"
On the serios side my boss has a freind that works for merc R&D, he claims merc dedicates most of there reserch time and money to the stern drive division. That is were there true strengths are. E-tech, Yamaha & Honda place all there Marine technology into outboards. I'm ALL AMERICAN but most of my toys seem to be japanes, they make good small well refined efficent toys.(its hard to beat there cars too)
Merc has allways and may be allways the most popular outboard like the small block chevy is to car motors, but it dosent mean there the best. I think Merc is also the only manufacturer that produces RACE motors so they should be fast.

[jrumon]

F150GT... Your probably right with the clanneling of funds and R&D focus.

By the way, ever wonder why YAMAHA never made that COOL 150 TXRP (twin counter rotating prop) with a bigger powerhead??? That thing is sweet!!! Think about a 300 V-MAX HPDI TXRP... sign me up!

[F150GT]

I've heard that the twin counter roating system isnt very good over 65mph,they seam to hit brick wall at that point regardless of the horse power. They are incredible on performance and efficency, a freind has a Bravo 3 on a searay cruiser, its quick and real good on gas.

[Mark]

The other issue with every one of these new motors is how complex they are. Very few do-it-yourselfers are going to have the training or the special tools to work on them. What is going to happen in a few years when these motors are in need of attention but the cost of having them repaired at let's say $100/hr outweighs the value of the motor itself. Any carbed motor is fairly simple to work on, even the EFI's aren't too bad. But I must of missed that day in shops class when we covered superchargers and orbital injectors!

[Boston Predictor]

you are right Mark, Just in the heads alone of a 4 stroke there are over 300 mechanical parts that are subjected to abuse, where as in the Etec head system there are only 2 parts! No camshaft, valves springs, timing chain etc etc... http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Chris]

Personally I hate the Verado. But I guess it has its place on some boat. Just not a Checkie IMO.

Merc has to be spending some R&D money on something. Just look at the Verado. It's a complicated disaster. Superchargers, pulleys, belts, YUCK!

What the heck money would they be spending on the Cruiser division. The blocks are GM and the rest of the engines use the same technology that has been around for 20 years.

I dunno...you're probably right though. http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/yell.gif

[fnshrmaster]

I can tell you that the owner of the pontoon rentals on our lake has been complaining about those e tecs fron day one!His fuel sales and oil sales dropped big time,in fact he is considering selling the etecs used and repowering with something a little LESS fuel efficient. http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/brickwall.gifI guess you could say he kinda crapped in his own lunch bucket when he bought those fuel sippers!I do know they are very powerful,even the little 50 hp model outruns my pontoon and I am running a 75 horse.Those canadians can sure make screaming two strokes,I have yet to see a snowmobile that can touch a Ski Doo in the same size class,the rev eats them up.(Sorry cat riders,I have ridden both machines in 600cc and the arctic cat seems like an old Johnson Ski horse compared to the rev HO)

[alwaysredee]

When I researched the Verado, I found going with the OPTI a simple decision. Yes quiet, yes smooth running. Twice the price and horses are esentially right at the rating. The OPTI dyno'd 15 horses HIGHER than the rating and cost half as much. With today's fuel and maintenance costs I wanted to do the best I could right out of the gate (know what I'm sayin'?). http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Regular fuel a major plus!

[F150GT]

The new motors will all continue to get more complicated and out of touch for the average back-yard mechanic, that's a fact of life with advancing technoligy. Most people cant work on there cars anymore either.
As for gas, I would not recomend ever running 87 octane in a 2-stroke. I only run 89 when I cant get any super. You cant hear pinging in a boat let alone a 2-stroke and thats a real good way to blow a power head. Many manufactureres have changed there service intervals for advertising purposes to give the impresion of lower operating costs, this is ok if your putting around the lake like an old granny but most of us want to go sking and run the piss out of our sweet Mates. Spend the extra in gas, save your motor.
F150GT

[check4booger]

man yall covered a whole lotta stuff in there and i just wanna make a few points here why are we comparing two stroke to four stoke its two totaly different machines they both have different good and bad traits its all about the consumer i am all about yamaha thats how i make my living but when a customer asks me whats the best engine out there all i say is the one u can afford. i also work in south fl and ive seen a lot of the bigger engines and the affects of salt water and with three years no maintanence bend over when u get that first service bill warranty dont cover neglect i cant even say anymore cause i can ramble all day about the good and bad points on all the outboards out there but there only the good and bad points that matter to me so all i can say when buying a new engine is do ur research and only worry about the factors that are important to you and on a serious note DONT believe everything u see on TV

[Rob'Z]

Here ya go, free of charge................just throw one in every ten words or so. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Good info, just a bit hard to read.

[jrumon]

check4booger... http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/brickwall.gif

thats the hardest post to read... http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif
(my language arts teacher just http://checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/sick.gif in her grave)

YES... everything today is "high-tech"...
"yee ol daz is dun"... no more repair jobs with a screw driver & pair of pliers. As with ANYTHING, maintance and proper operation is the #1 key to anything lasting. Other than the high cost of the initial purchase, look at all the PLUS sides... way better fuel economy, less oil consumption, less polution to the air & our water, they last 400% longer before rebuilds, way better corrosion resistance, and for the most part more horsepower with less weight (except the Verado)...

[Chris]

Here's some interesting stuff coming from Merc. http://www.checkmate-boats.com/graemlins/thumb.gif

Rude Awakening (http://www.thenextbite.com/site_images/final1561ComprBro.pdf)

[jrumon]

And Merc finally released the Optimax 300XS at the Miami Show... think of it as a 3.2L stroked 300X with better everything! Now maybe it can actually pass up a fuel dock occasionally! At least someone is thinking at merc! Hopefully, they go back to the drawing board on the Verado!!!

[INXS]

Originally posted by Chris:
I'm not dissing them. Just pointing out it isn't the same company. Hey they're Canadians! And they're also a company that have gone bankrupt, then taken over, then sold in a short period of time.

I also had a look at the Yammi site and it looks like they've bumped up their redlines from the typical 5500 max they used to set. Most are up near 6K. So let's see how they hold up under the higher loads.
Good to see the moved up the max rpms. I saw a comparision a year or so ago where they rasied the rpms on a 250 hp ans it was within .5 mph of the opti max.