PDA

View Full Version : Epoxy Resin


Rob B
02-25-2012, 09:39 AM
I decided to create/open up a new thread for epoxy resin info to keep from hijacking Jeff's restohttp://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22880:. I don't know much about epoxy having used poly on both of my restos. OG was kind enough to share info about it. So I've compiled all the information thus far and hope this will help others who are undecided on what resin to use. Here are some of the questions asked so far:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpulse170 http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/images/buttons/2009/viewpost.gif (http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?p=550399#post550399)
Jeff looking on us composites website, do you buy the epoxy as a kit or how ever many gallons you need? I guess my question is how do you know which product to buy and how much?

good question.......I buy it as a kit...as i knew I was going to do alot of resto...4 gallons goes along way...to date i think ive used at least 8

how much to buy...hmm thats a tough one...thats prob a question for OG...it goes fast when your finding something new every day...and what the application is...

for example...I did the core under the bow...total of 4.5 sq. yards of 1708, 4.5 sq. yrds of 17 oz bi-axle, 40 sq. ft of balsa and cabosil/resin mix to fillet the edges...i also used thin mix of cabosil to stick the balsa core..l used almost 2 gallons for that...Of course when your layering or doing lay up of overlapping 2 inches you use less as part of the cloth is already wet....the way i do epoxy is to saturate the cloth on a bench then wet the wood or hull and laminate the two together..the 1708 really eats up epoxy resin to wet it out...thats why i used more 17 oz biaxle...really strong and the CM back isnt really necessary with epoxy...

On the other end, I use the 635 thin epoxy with the 3 to1 hardener..gives you plenty of work time around the to 60 degree range...if its warmer I would use the 2 to 1 hardener...i dont mind over night dry time, to give me more work time in bigger areas. I use mixing tubs...from 8 oz to a 36 oz batch...with us composites stuff you dont have to really use the pumps...

Their thick epoxy 150...is good for cabosil mix for fillets but isnt necessary...it like a honey consistency...not good with fabric saturation. I will say us composites is awesome to work with...they ship the next day and i have it 2 days later...they have everything but core materials...

from OG

http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html (http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html) Robbie , just a quick mention the # 635 will go further then Poly or Vinyl which means you have different options as far as fabric goes ....... and in the long run you will not need a fabric that has a binder or a chop back because anything like 1708 with a binder is designed strictly for use with Poly/Vinvl thus the binder ( CSM ) and to tell you the truth the 17 oz used in 1708 is actualy E-Glass minus the chop back which is the most widely used and economical reinforcment fabric in the industry and the fabric of my choice is S - Glass which is the same as E- Glass but more expensive .


Originally Posted by cmpulse170 http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/images/buttons/2009/viewpost.gif (http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?p=550450#post550450)
I'm gonna start another thread so not to take away from Jeff's resto. The question I have is if you use epoxy for the floor can you gelcoat over it? I might be wrong but epoxy and gelcoat doesn't mix or maybe I read that part wrong. Sorry for all the questions!! :o
from cmpulse170

Robbie , yes there will be a problem when using Gel with Epoxy and to tell you the truth i was just about to send Jeff , info on products that can be used with Epoxy and if he dosent mind............... i will put it out there for all ( post ) but then again that is is call ................... is thread .....................

Quote:
Originally Posted by BADBK http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/images/buttons/2009/viewpost.gif (http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?p=550475#post550475)
Soooooo.... DBM 1708 Biaxial mat is the stuff to use vs. 18 oz E cloth? I will be using 635 epoxy, hopefully not 10 gal
tho!

If your using epoxy, 1708 is not recommended....:poke:.i used 17 0z bi-axle 45+/-. If you go to US composites they sell a "special" 1708 they recommend for use with there #635 thin epoxy...
It soaks up epoxy and will distort if you handle it wrong, but i found it to be a benefit as to manipulate it around irregular shapes....When its set up, its tough as nails...most of my stuff had 2 to 3 layers anyway..:D

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-25-2012, 11:42 AM
Robbie just a quick mention and that is........ the special # 1708 that us composites sells is the same as any other #1708 which means the weight of the cloth in ounces ( 17 ) which is 2 layers of glass and the 08 means a third layer of chopped mat ( binder) stitched into the fabric ,and to tell you the truth there really is no need for 1708 when using Epoxy because the binder is used and designed for poly or Vinyl which may cause clouding and prevent thorough wet out even though #1708 is sometimes used with epoxy resins with satisfactory results , and personally in my own opinion using epoxy with 1708 is a bad choice considering it takes a lot more resin to wet out opposed to 17oz Bi ax , and from past experience i have seen a new boat fail during sea trial / shake down / delivery / because #1708 was used with Epoxy in there build even though the manufacturer of the boat was told they would be able to use all existing fabrics that they were already using in there past builds with poly / Vinyl .

Rob B
02-25-2012, 11:42 AM
Somehow I screwed up Jeff's resto link for references, so here it is: http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22880

Rob B
02-25-2012, 11:45 AM
Robbie just a quick mention and that is........ the special # 1708 that us composites sells is the same as any other #1708 which means the weight of the cloth in ounces ( 17 ) which is 2 layers of glass and the 08 means a third layer of chopped mat ( binder) stitched into the fabric and to tell you the truth there really is no need for 1708 when using Epoxy because the binder is used and designed for poly or Vinyl which may cause clouding and prevent thorough wet out even though #1708 is sometimes used with epoxy resins with satisfactory results and personally in my own opinion using epoxy with 1708 is a bad choice considering it takes a lot more resin to wet out opposed to 17oz Bi ax and from past experience i have seen a new boat fail during sea trial / shake down / delivery / because #1708 and Epoxy was used in the build even though they were told that they would be able to use Epoxy with all fabrics / glass / cloth that they were already using .

That's why I had some clouding and didn't know why!!:brickwall: Thanks for the explaination!!

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 11:56 AM
Robbie just a quick mention and that is........ the special # 1708 that us composites sells is the same as any other #1708 which means the weight of the cloth in ounces ( 17 ) which is 2 layers of glass and the 08 means a third layer of chopped mat ( binder) stitched into the fabric and to tell you the truth there really is no need for 1708 when using Epoxy because the binder is used and designed for poly or Vinyl which may cause clouding and prevent thorough wet out even though #1708 is sometimes used with epoxy resins with satisfactory results and personally in my own opinion using epoxy with 1708 is a bad choice considering it takes a lot more resin to wet out opposed to 17oz Bi ax and from past experience i have seen a new boat fail during sea trial / shake down / delivery / because #1708 and Epoxy was used in the build even though they were told that they would be able to use Epoxy with all fabrics / glass / cloth that they were already using .

Like OG said, the 1708 did eat epoxy and did look "cloudy" when it cured. I used both products, the 1708 and the 17 oz bi-axle i used mostly the bi-axle...the 17 oz bi-axle wets out so much easier, and was just as tough (maybe tougher) in the end. Again, though the 17 oz bi-axle will distort when handling....it will also distort back with manipulation. This is why I used the slower dry time hardener....dont be afraid to use your hands!:D

Dont forget like any resin...rubber gloves and a tyvek suit, not sure on the poly, but epoxy will be permanent on those good work jeans...:shakehead:

Rob B
02-25-2012, 12:04 PM
I got jeans that are ruined from poly resin!:( Not only do you need the tyvek suit and gloves but also a good respirator, poly stinks!!!:D

Rob B
02-25-2012, 12:09 PM
OG/Jeff can either of you or both give a layup schedule for the transom,floor, knees and stringers? Or maybe typical layup using epoxy resin?

BADBK
02-25-2012, 12:09 PM
Good info, thanks. I've only read "make sure you use 1708" on here before.... With the stronger 635 epoxy I can use the 17oz b/a and layer to my liking with better results.

Is their any portion of my floor/transom that would benefit from anything other than 17oz?

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 12:11 PM
I got jeans that are ruined from poly resin!:( Not only do you need the tyvek suit and gloves but also a good respirator, poly stinks!!!:D

Epoxy is lower order, more like plastics class in high school...do they still have that class?:sssh:

I used shims for stir sticks.....after all i am a builder and have hundreds of them...;)...think i used 25 anyway. Important to start clean each day.....I also used a drill motor and a mixing paddle at low speed on the bigger batches...

but good point Robbie, respirator is important, especially with the cabosil, which i used 10 gals on my resto....

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 12:20 PM
Good info, thanks. I've only read "make sure you use 1708" on here before.... With the stronger 635 epoxy I can use the 17oz b/a and layer to my liking with better results.

Is their any portion of my floor/transom that would benefit from anything other than 17oz?

Like OG said to me, why buy different cloths?, layering the 17 oz b/a is all you need for strength....also, like with poly, fillet or ease all your edges with cabosil/epoxy...the 17 oz does not like tight corners...With OG advice i used cabosil for any filling including feathering the floor...mix to a peanut butter consistency it was a pleasure to work with...

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 12:27 PM
OG/Jeff can either of you or both give a layup schedule for the transom,floor, knees and stringers? Or maybe typical layup using epoxy resin?

Og posted some good pics of how he cut the the cloth and marks it for layering...basically like he told me....if you add cloth over cloth with out layering, you just get thicker glass...with layering or overlapping just 1 inch you get superb strength....I used 3, 7 inch strips at the transom sides and bottoms in layers. Start by setting the first piece 5 to 6 inches up the transom and 1 to 2 inches on the hull then in 1 inch overlaps install the next layer overlapping towards the hull...untill you have all your layers..in my thread post # 174 is what i did...in post 151, 152 is OG explanation....not sure how to put a direct link here??

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-25-2012, 01:22 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/v3zm02.jpg i think this is what jeff is trying to point out.

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-25-2012, 01:25 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/sp7yfd.jpg

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-25-2012, 01:40 PM
To those interested this is a staggered layup using mutiple layers of fabric which is something i always do ...... considering your layup will only be as strong as your weakest link which means if you pile three layers of fabric one on top of each other you will only have one thick layer of glass thus staggering your layup like pictured above will give your repair more structural integrity or strength .

Sam I am
02-25-2012, 02:56 PM
Awesome thread!! Any reason I shouldn't use epoxy resin on composite flooring and transom material? How about cabisol? FrOm what I can find everything should still work, but would like a little back from the experts. Also, my garage is attached to my house, will the epoxy fumes be a hazard for my wife and kids? We don't want to wear respirators to bed.

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 03:32 PM
Awesome thread!! Any reason I shouldn't use epoxy resin on composite flooring and transom material? How about cabisol? FrOm what I can find everything should still work, but would like a little back from the experts. Also, my garage is attached to my house, will the epoxy fumes be a hazard for my wife and kids? We don't want to wear respirators to bed.

Ive been told epoxy fumes although not as strong to the nose, are just as hazardous as any other resin...My shop is attached to my office, i dont seem to smell it inside, But with any hazardous material, good ventilation is key.

also, the rule is epoxy is ok over poly, but not poly over epoxy....so i think your safe...:cheers:

dont forget to buy a good amount of acetone...keeping your surfaces clean and wiped with acetone before any epoxy touches it will ensure a good bond.:)

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 03:33 PM
To those interested this is a staggered layup using mutiple layers of fabric which is something i always do ...... considering your layup will only be as strong as your weakest link which means if you pile three layers of fabric one on top of each other you will only have one thick layer of glass thus staggering your layup like pictured above will give your repair more structural integrity or strength .

OG, i did notice you are a echanter now....way to go big guy!!!!!:bounce:

I have climbed thru the ranks as well....we need to get away from the desk and back in the shop....ha!

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-25-2012, 04:04 PM
OG, i did notice you are a echanter now....way to go big guy!!!!!:bounce:

I have climbed thru the ranks as well....we need to get away from the desk and back in the shop....ha! Well .....................i guess iam along with more rep power . ha ha ha :bigthumb:

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-25-2012, 04:28 PM
Sam , just curious are you thinking of using Epoxy on the Thermo - lite or Composite board and if so i used Epoxy on four 2 inch stringer's ( Coosa ) this past summer and like Jeff , has mentioned you can use Epoxy on Poly or Vinyl just not the other way around and i think you will enjoy working with Epoxy ( example ) just for the stank alone .

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 05:08 PM
Ive been told epoxy fumes although not as strong to the nose, are just as hazardous as any other resin...My shop is attached to my office, i dont seem to smell it inside, But with any hazardous material, good ventilation is key.

also, the rule is epoxy is ok over poly, but not poly over epoxy....so i think your safe...:cheers:

dont forget to buy a good amount of acetone...keeping your surfaces clean and wiped with acetone before any epoxy touches it will ensure a good bond.:)

I wanted to add that most of my info has come first from OG, then US composites and from the local surf board shapers...yup we surf here!!:rof:

ballardnboyz
02-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Sam , just curious are you thinking of using Epoxy on the Thermo - lite or Composite board and if so i used Epoxy on four 2 inch stringer's ( Coosa ) this past summer and like Jeff , has mentioned you can use Epoxy on Poly or Vinyl just not the other way around and i think you will enjoy working with Epoxy ( example ) just for the stank alone .


4 two inch stringers?..what the heck are you building old man? :lol:....my new cat??

Sam I am
02-25-2012, 09:18 PM
I wanted to add that most of my info has come first from OG, then US composites and from the local surf board shapers...yup we surf here!!:rof:

I hear you on the surfer pipeline for knowledge...I had a very brief love affair with surfing. My buddies all had epoxy boards and I went el cheapo with a conventional fiberglass board...I had to be soooooo careful with my board and they could literally beat on their epoxy boards without fear...epoxy was a lot tougher. My hope is that using the epoxy resin on the boat will make it a lot more durable.

Sam I am
02-25-2012, 09:28 PM
Sam , just curious are you thinking of using Epoxy on the Thermo - lite or Composite board and if so i used Epoxy on four 2 inch stringer's ( Coosa ) this past summer and like Jeff , has mentioned you can use Epoxy on Poly or Vinyl just not the other way around and i think you will enjoy working with Epoxy ( example ) just for the stank alone .


Yep. Epoxy on the new thermolite transom, stringers and floor. I'm really excited about this project. I've learned a lot from all the restore threads but I've really gained a lot of confidence from this thread and Jeff's restore thread on how to really pull off the details and possibly even go for some style points! I'm still concerned with the fumes, but by the time I get to the point of laying anything up I think I'll be able open the garage doors and air it out...

Rob B
02-25-2012, 10:01 PM
Sam after compiling the info on epoxy, I'm about ready to tear my boat apart again. :eyecrazy: Damn did I ready say that!!!!:D

karzrus
02-25-2012, 10:18 PM
Sam after compiling the info on epoxy, I'm about ready to tear my boat apart again. :eyecrazy: Damn did I ready say that!!!!:D

Hey crazy restoration guy
You leave that boat alone, finish it and be done with it already. :poke:

If you want to try again, in epoxy, get another boat!!!:eyecrazy:

Rob B
02-26-2012, 08:32 AM
Hey crazy restoration guy
You leave that boat alone, finish it and be done with it already. :poke:

If you want to try again, in epoxy, get another boat!!!:eyecrazy:

:rof:You're absolutely right!!!! I gotta finish what I started!!:D

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-26-2012, 10:40 AM
4 two inch stringers?..what the heck are you building old man? :lol:....my new cat?? Jeff , it was a major stringer job on a 40 plus Ray which made me realize that i just might be getting a little two old for a job of that magnitude seeing that i needed a ladder just to get in an out of the bilge ,and starting this spring i will pic and choose the work i want to do along with the size of the boat . ;)

ballardnboyz
02-26-2012, 12:23 PM
Jeff , it was a major stringer job on a 40 plus Ray which made me realize that i just might be getting a little two old for a job of that magnitude seeing that i needed a ladder just to get in an out of the bilge ,and starting this spring i will pic and choose the work i want to do along with the size of the boat . ;)

you need to move here ..where its warm, and you can build these Hatteras ships,,,:D

ballardnboyz
02-26-2012, 12:30 PM
I hear you on the surfer pipeline for knowledge...I had a very brief love affair with surfing. My buddies all had epoxy boards and I went el cheapo with a conventional fiberglass board...I had to be soooooo careful with my board and they could literally beat on their epoxy boards without fear...epoxy was a lot tougher. My hope is that using the epoxy resin on the boat will make it a lot more durable.

Big battle here on epoxy boards....no one local builds them, they all come from china....sore subject as far as local shaped and sold....we have a couple newer growing sports now...both using epoxy boards...Kite boarding(crazy men) and paddle boarding....you had better be in shape for either...or you will be....:sick:

with the kites, its become a hot spot from all over the world as we have the ocean and the Albemarle sound divided by a 1 mile strip of sand...I live in Kitty Hawk....

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-26-2012, 02:51 PM
I wanted to add that most of my info has come first from OG, then US composites and from the local surf board shapers...yup we surf here!!:rof: Jeff , it truely has been my pleasure along with getting to know you though are conversations over the phone . :bigthumb: :D

ballardnboyz
02-28-2012, 09:19 PM
Jeff , it truely has been my pleasure along with getting to know you though are conversations over the phone . :bigthumb: :D

pleasure was, is all mine!..:D

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-28-2012, 09:25 PM
pleasure was, is all mine!..:D What do you think ...................Ballardnboyz Fiberglass repair ........kinda has a nice ring to it .....hey:lol::lol::lol:

ballardnboyz
03-02-2012, 05:40 PM
What do you think ...................Ballardnboyz Fiberglass repair ........kinda has a nice ring to it .....hey:lol::lol::lol:

as much fun as I think it is...doesnt pay enough here to retire...but when i do retire...watch out Artie!!!!:cheers:

Madtown
03-12-2012, 07:16 PM
I would like to use epoxy on my resto but wow that stuff is not cheap compared to poly.

Rob B
03-12-2012, 07:26 PM
I would like to use epoxy on my resto but wow that stuff is not cheap compared to poly.

Supposedly the price balances out between the two, however the info is here for folks to make a choice. I think badbk ordered 7 gallons of epoxy for his resto. Check his and ballardnboyz resto's out, both are using epoxy resin.

Madtown
03-12-2012, 10:48 PM
Well after reading a few threads epoxy resin from US Composites it is. Can I use PL Premium as a bonding agent for stringers/transom to hull while still using epoxy? If not what is recommended?

BADBK
03-12-2012, 10:50 PM
5 gal + 1.5 gal hardener = 6.5 gal for $275 through u.s. composites.

Madtown
03-12-2012, 10:58 PM
5 gal + 1.5 gal hardener = 6.5 gal for $275 through u.s. composites.

Perfect. What kind of fiberglass cloth are you using & did you purchase from same place? You using Cabisol also as the bonding/fillet?

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-12-2012, 11:58 PM
Hey guy i can not speak for everyone else but in my opinion i would hope that most people would use 17 oz Bi ax or 17 oz S or E glass or any fabric that is compatiable for use with Epoxy considering you dont want to use any chop or continous strand mats ( binder ) in any Epoxy systems like 1708, and if you get a chance go back to post 2 in this thread .

BADBK
03-13-2012, 12:57 AM
Perfect. What kind of fiberglass cloth are you using & did you purchase from same place? You using Cabisol also as the bonding/fillet?

Ordered 17 ox bi ax cloth from them as well, 30 yards... seems like a lot, but I'd rather have a little too much than not enough. Cab-o-sil from them too, I got the 10 lb bag, it's BIG, holy cow! I'll use it to fillet all joints on the floor plus use it on top of floor stringers/side hull to seal/attach floor too so I'm sure I'll use most of it. :thumb: This S.O.B. will be water proof when I'm done!

groundloop
03-13-2012, 08:39 AM
I just glanced through this thread and noticed one point that I think could be more fully addressed. Someone mentioned something about fiberglass being "cloudy" after using epoxy - what that means is that the cloth wasn't thoroughly wet out. When doing a layup, fiberglass cloth MUST be thoroughly wet, at which point it becomes transparent with virtually no white visible. Glass that's not thoroughly wet out is significantly weaker and much more prone to delaminate. One thing you can do to help speed wet-out is to use a hair dryer to warm up the area you're working on, heat will make the epoxy thinner and it flows into the glass easier.

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-13-2012, 11:46 AM
Hey guys , i did mention in a previous post that mats with a binder (CSM) like #1708 are designed for polyeyster resins and though they are sometimes used with Epoxy resins with satisfactory results , the binder may cause clouding and prevent through wet out and to tell you the truth using a mat like # 1708 with epoxy is a waste of resin considering it takes that much more resin to thoroughly wet the fabric out opposed to using fabrics with NO chop or continious strand mats (binder) which is NOT recomended to be used with Epoxy resins .

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-13-2012, 12:49 PM
Seeing that this is a thread started by Robbie on Epoxy i would like to mention that there are many different Epoxies to choose from and some are better then other's and with that in mind i often use four different brands of Epoxy and one is made by Shell that takes 48 hours to cure with a .......V E R Y ........long pot life that i get from Skater #2 I often use a resin made by Plasco that is used in the Areo Space industry which is a High Impact / Room /High Temperature Laminating System that offers five different hardners that range from 30,45,60,75, to 165 minutes which i often mix and match resins using there in- fusion which is a thinner resin depending on the lay up and what needs to be done #3 the last one that i use is # 635 that gives you the best bang for the buck which is sold by us composites , and #4 which i use ocasionally is made by West System which i started using in my late teens .

jazzy
03-13-2012, 01:28 PM
This seems like as good a place to ask my question, what epoxy would you guys recommend to use for laying up carbon fiber, I have two small panels on the inside of my windscreen faring that we're originally covered in upholstery and screwed into the faring what I would like to do is replace those w cf panels w a downturned leg mounted to the deck for extra strength the tail end of the fairings has turned into a common grab spot for getting into the boat and they need some extra support

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-13-2012, 01:39 PM
This seems like as good a place to ask my question, what epoxy would you guys recommend to use for laying up carbon fiber, I have two small panels on the inside of my windscreen faring that we're originally covered in upholstery and screwed into the faring what I would like to do is replace those w cf panels w a downturned leg mounted to the deck for extra strength the tail end of the fairings has turned into a common grab spot for getting into the boat and they need some extra supportJazzy first off how big are the panels and how clear do you want then to look and the reason i ask about the panel staying clear is most Epoxy or Epoxies will yellow over a period of time because of UV rays .

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-13-2012, 01:55 PM
Jazzy i failed to mention that i use this product on many Jet and V drive boats where a clear finish is needed inside of the boat where you will see all the wood grain of the balsa , ect , or west coast look...... if you know what i mean. http://www.adtechplastics.com/pc-1424-26-proclear-clear-epoxy-system.aspx and if you would like to purchase those panels already pre made check this site out and go to rigid Carbon Fiber Panels off to the left. http://compositeenvisions.com Hey guy , if you are not concered with any of the above or yellowing the #635 Epoxy Resin from us composites will work just fine .

jazzy
03-13-2012, 06:04 PM
The panels aren't very large maybe 4x52 with a taper from the 4 at one end to an inch at the other, yes I want them perfectly clear they will be matching my dash panels which I bought pre made and had machined
I tried some sample pieces w the west system epoxy and wasn't very happy w the results
We

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-13-2012, 08:04 PM
Jassy , when making these panels gravity will be your best friend seeing that your shinney surface or best surface will be the first one on the bottom and if you like i will post a pic .