Epoxy Resin

[Rob B]

I decided to create/open up a new thread for epoxy resin info to keep from hijacking Jeff's restohttp://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22880:. I don't know much about epoxy having used poly on both of my restos. OG was kind enough to share info about it. So I've compiled all the information thus far and hope this will help others who are undecided on what resin to use. Here are some of the questions asked so far:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpulse170
Jeff looking on us composites website, do you buy the epoxy as a kit or how ever many gallons you need? I guess my question is how do you know which product to buy and how much?

good question.......I buy it as a kit...as i knew I was going to do alot of resto...4 gallons goes along way...to date i think ive used at least 8

how much to buy...hmm thats a tough one...thats prob a question for OG...it goes fast when your finding something new every day...and what the application is...

for example...I did the core under the bow...total of 4.5 sq. yards of 1708, 4.5 sq. yrds of 17 oz bi-axle, 40 sq. ft of balsa and cabosil/resin mix to fillet the edges...i also used thin mix of cabosil to stick the balsa core..l used almost 2 gallons for that...Of course when your layering or doing lay up of overlapping 2 inches you use less as part of the cloth is already wet....the way i do epoxy is to saturate the cloth on a bench then wet the wood or hull and laminate the two together..the 1708 really eats up epoxy resin to wet it out...thats why i used more 17 oz biaxle...really strong and the CM back isnt really necessary with epoxy...

On the other end, I use the 635 thin epoxy with the 3 to1 hardener..gives you plenty of work time around the to 60 degree range...if its warmer I would use the 2 to 1 hardener...i dont mind over night dry time, to give me more work time in bigger areas. I use mixing tubs...from 8 oz to a 36 oz batch...with us composites stuff you dont have to really use the pumps...

Their thick epoxy 150...is good for cabosil mix for fillets but isnt necessary...it like a honey consistency...not good with fabric saturation. I will say us composites is awesome to work with...they ship the next day and i have it 2 days later...they have everything but core materials...

from OG

http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html Robbie , just a quick mention the # 635 will go further then Poly or Vinyl which means you have different options as far as fabric goes ....... and in the long run you will not need a fabric that has a binder or a chop back because anything like 1708 with a binder is designed strictly for use with Poly/Vinvl thus the binder ( CSM ) and to tell you the truth the 17 oz used in 1708 is actualy E-Glass minus the chop back which is the most widely used and economical reinforcment fabric in the industry and the fabric of my choice is S - Glass which is the same as E- Glass but more expensive .


Originally Posted by cmpulse170
I'm gonna start another thread so not to take away from Jeff's resto. The question I have is if you use epoxy for the floor can you gelcoat over it? I might be wrong but epoxy and gelcoat doesn't mix or maybe I read that part wrong. Sorry for all the questions!!
from cmpulse170

Robbie , yes there will be a problem when using Gel with Epoxy and to tell you the truth i was just about to send Jeff , info on products that can be used with Epoxy and if he dosent mind............... i will put it out there for all ( post ) but then again that is is call ................... is thread .....................

Quote:
Originally Posted by BADBK
Soooooo.... DBM 1708 Biaxial mat is the stuff to use vs. 18 oz E cloth? I will be using 635 epoxy, hopefully not 10 gal
tho!

If your using epoxy, 1708 is not recommended.....i used 17 0z bi-axle 45+/-. If you go to US composites they sell a "special" 1708 they recommend for use with there #635 thin epoxy...
It soaks up epoxy and will distort if you handle it wrong, but i found it to be a benefit as to manipulate it around irregular shapes....When its set up, its tough as nails...most of my stuff had 2 to 3 layers anyway..

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Robbie just a quick mention and that is........ the special # 1708 that us composites sells is the same as any other #1708 which means the weight of the cloth in ounces ( 17 ) which is 2 layers of glass and the 08 means a third layer of chopped mat ( binder) stitched into the fabric ,and to tell you the truth there really is no need for 1708 when using Epoxy because the binder is used and designed for poly or Vinyl which may cause clouding and prevent thorough wet out even though #1708 is sometimes used with epoxy resins with satisfactory results , and personally in my own opinion using epoxy with 1708 is a bad choice considering it takes a lot more resin to wet out opposed to 17oz Bi ax , and from past experience i have seen a new boat fail during sea trial / shake down / delivery / because #1708 was used with Epoxy in there build even though the manufacturer of the boat was told they would be able to use all existing fabrics that they were already using in there past builds with poly / Vinyl .

 

[Rob B]

Somehow I screwed up Jeff's resto link for references, so here it is: http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22880

 

[Rob B]

Robbie just a quick mention and that is........ the special # 1708 that us composites sells is the same as any other #1708 which means the weight of the cloth in ounces ( 17 ) which is 2 layers of glass and the 08 means a third layer of chopped mat ( binder) stitched into the fabric and to tell you the truth there really is no need for 1708 when using Epoxy because the binder is used and designed for poly or Vinyl which may cause clouding and prevent thorough wet out even though #1708 is sometimes used with epoxy resins with satisfactory results and personally in my own opinion using epoxy with 1708 is a bad choice considering it takes a lot more resin to wet out opposed to 17oz Bi ax and from past experience i have seen a new boat fail during sea trial / shake down / delivery / because #1708 and Epoxy was used in the build even though they were told that they would be able to use Epoxy with all fabrics / glass / cloth that they were already using .

That's why I had some clouding and didn't know why!! Thanks for the explaination!!

 

[ballardnboyz]

Robbie just a quick mention and that is........ the special # 1708 that us composites sells is the same as any other #1708 which means the weight of the cloth in ounces ( 17 ) which is 2 layers of glass and the 08 means a third layer of chopped mat ( binder) stitched into the fabric and to tell you the truth there really is no need for 1708 when using Epoxy because the binder is used and designed for poly or Vinyl which may cause clouding and prevent thorough wet out even though #1708 is sometimes used with epoxy resins with satisfactory results and personally in my own opinion using epoxy with 1708 is a bad choice considering it takes a lot more resin to wet out opposed to 17oz Bi ax and from past experience i have seen a new boat fail during sea trial / shake down / delivery / because #1708 and Epoxy was used in the build even though they were told that they would be able to use Epoxy with all fabrics / glass / cloth that they were already using .

Like OG said, the 1708 did eat epoxy and did look "cloudy" when it cured. I used both products, the 1708 and the 17 oz bi-axle i used mostly the bi-axle...the 17 oz bi-axle wets out so much easier, and was just as tough (maybe tougher) in the end. Again, though the 17 oz bi-axle will distort when handling....it will also distort back with manipulation. This is why I used the slower dry time hardener....dont be afraid to use your hands!

Dont forget like any resin...rubber gloves and a tyvek suit, not sure on the poly, but epoxy will be permanent on those good work jeans...

 

[Rob B]

I got jeans that are ruined from poly resin! Not only do you need the tyvek suit and gloves but also a good respirator, poly stinks!!!

 

[Rob B]

OG/Jeff can either of you or both give a layup schedule for the transom,floor, knees and stringers? Or maybe typical layup using epoxy resin?

 

[BADBK]

Good info, thanks. I've only read "make sure you use 1708" on here before.... With the stronger 635 epoxy I can use the 17oz b/a and layer to my liking with better results.

Is their any portion of my floor/transom that would benefit from anything other than 17oz?

 

[ballardnboyz]

I got jeans that are ruined from poly resin! Not only do you need the tyvek suit and gloves but also a good respirator, poly stinks!!!

Epoxy is lower order, more like plastics class in high school...do they still have that class?

I used shims for stir sticks.....after all i am a builder and have hundreds of them......think i used 25 anyway. Important to start clean each day.....I also used a drill motor and a mixing paddle at low speed on the bigger batches...

but good point Robbie, respirator is important, especially with the cabosil, which i used 10 gals on my resto....

 

[ballardnboyz]

Good info, thanks. I've only read "make sure you use 1708" on here before.... With the stronger 635 epoxy I can use the 17oz b/a and layer to my liking with better results.

Is their any portion of my floor/transom that would benefit from anything other than 17oz?

Like OG said to me, why buy different cloths?, layering the 17 oz b/a is all you need for strength....also, like with poly, fillet or ease all your edges with cabosil/epoxy...the 17 oz does not like tight corners...With OG advice i used cabosil for any filling including feathering the floor...mix to a peanut butter consistency it was a pleasure to work with...

 

[ballardnboyz]

OG/Jeff can either of you or both give a layup schedule for the transom,floor, knees and stringers? Or maybe typical layup using epoxy resin?

Og posted some good pics of how he cut the the cloth and marks it for layering...basically like he told me....if you add cloth over cloth with out layering, you just get thicker glass...with layering or overlapping just 1 inch you get superb strength....I used 3, 7 inch strips at the transom sides and bottoms in layers. Start by setting the first piece 5 to 6 inches up the transom and 1 to 2 inches on the hull then in 1 inch overlaps install the next layer overlapping towards the hull...untill you have all your layers..in my thread post # 174 is what i did...in post 151, 152 is OG explanation....not sure how to put a direct link here??

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

i think this is what jeff is trying to point out.

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

To those interested this is a staggered layup using mutiple layers of fabric which is something i always do ...... considering your layup will only be as strong as your weakest link which means if you pile three layers of fabric one on top of each other you will only have one thick layer of glass thus staggering your layup like pictured above will give your repair more structural integrity or strength .

 

[Sam I am]

Awesome thread!! Any reason I shouldn't use epoxy resin on composite flooring and transom material? How about cabisol? FrOm what I can find everything should still work, but would like a little back from the experts. Also, my garage is attached to my house, will the epoxy fumes be a hazard for my wife and kids? We don't want to wear respirators to bed.

 

[ballardnboyz]

Awesome thread!! Any reason I shouldn't use epoxy resin on composite flooring and transom material? How about cabisol? FrOm what I can find everything should still work, but would like a little back from the experts. Also, my garage is attached to my house, will the epoxy fumes be a hazard for my wife and kids? We don't want to wear respirators to bed.

Ive been told epoxy fumes although not as strong to the nose, are just as hazardous as any other resin...My shop is attached to my office, i dont seem to smell it inside, But with any hazardous material, good ventilation is key.

also, the rule is epoxy is ok over poly, but not poly over epoxy....so i think your safe...

dont forget to buy a good amount of acetone...keeping your surfaces clean and wiped with acetone before any epoxy touches it will ensure a good bond.

 

[ballardnboyz]

To those interested this is a staggered layup using mutiple layers of fabric which is something i always do ...... considering your layup will only be as strong as your weakest link which means if you pile three layers of fabric one on top of each other you will only have one thick layer of glass thus staggering your layup like pictured above will give your repair more structural integrity or strength .

OG, i did notice you are a echanter now....way to go big guy!!!!!

I have climbed thru the ranks as well....we need to get away from the desk and back in the shop....ha!

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

OG, i did notice you are a echanter now....way to go big guy!!!!!

I have climbed thru the ranks as well....we need to get away from the desk and back in the shop....ha!

Well .....................i guess iam along with more rep power . ha ha ha

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Sam , just curious are you thinking of using Epoxy on the Thermo - lite or Composite board and if so i used Epoxy on four 2 inch stringer's ( Coosa ) this past summer and like Jeff , has mentioned you can use Epoxy on Poly or Vinyl just not the other way around and i think you will enjoy working with Epoxy ( example ) just for the stank alone .

 

[ballardnboyz]

Ive been told epoxy fumes although not as strong to the nose, are just as hazardous as any other resin...My shop is attached to my office, i dont seem to smell it inside, But with any hazardous material, good ventilation is key.

also, the rule is epoxy is ok over poly, but not poly over epoxy....so i think your safe...

dont forget to buy a good amount of acetone...keeping your surfaces clean and wiped with acetone before any epoxy touches it will ensure a good bond.

I wanted to add that most of my info has come first from OG, then US composites and from the local surf board shapers...yup we surf here!!