Beckmate popularity

[karzrus]

I guess people will vote with their wallets. I know the industry is in terrible shape and I'm sure things are tight at CM but it would be cool to see an origional new design in the CM style come out of Checkmate Marine. A clean sheet 36' Convincor would be cool. Or maybe a cut down low profile 21' Pulsare.

I was looking at the pixs coming out of the Miami Boat Show today. There were some incredible boats being displayed. Even though I admire these ultra high end boats........how many people can really afford them? I never will be. Plus, to me a lot of these designs just don't look practical to the average joe blow weekend boater. This is why I think Cmate and a few other builders will be sitting pretty when the market does return. CM makes a well built boat, that is unique and runs great, and is affordable to the average person. I hope Cm Marine keeps working on updating the current Cm models, keeps the prices down and hopefully introduces a few new clean sheet models.

I agree with all of this, and I think we are all afraid that in an attempt to retain some form of "the best of Baja", CM will turn into a new brand of boat leaving all/most of the neat older CM stuff behind. The stuff that created a loyal following and return buyers.

To me it's disturbing that Baja went out of business building their hulls/interiors/graphics, was it due to low demand for the style/quality or poor management of the brand or both? I don't know, but I think if too little of what makes a CM is retained, CM won't be attractive to the old loyal following or anyone else. Sadly I think we have already witnessed a very strong move away from classic CM styling, I hope it stops soon. Building a new boat like SCT suggests would be a signal that the new CM likes it's history.

 

[Rob B]

Let's try this angle; if Forrest Wood the owner of the Legendary Ranger bassboats sold out to the owner astro boats. What kind of boat do you think would be built then? Not as good as a Forrest Wood built Ranger, why because Rangers are built one at the time not mass produced like other boats. Forrest Wood has been building Ranger bassboats for over 40 yrs, he didn't sell out. What he did was listen to his customers and used the latest innovations to build a better boat. He's still in business today, so Checkmate could've done the same thing instead of selling out to Doug Smith. This is how the most loyal Checkmate owners probably feel. Just my .02.

 

[Chris]

Let's try this angle; if Forrest Wood the owner of the Legendary Ranger bassboats sold out to the owner astro boats. What kind of boat do you think would be built then? Not as good as a Forrest Wood built Ranger, why because Rangers are built one at the time not mass produced like other boats. Forrest Wood has been building Ranger bassboats for over 40 yrs, he didn't sell out. What he did was listen to his customers and used the latest innovations to build a better boat. He's still in business today, so Checkmate could've done the same thing instead of selling out to Doug Smith. This is how the most loyal Checkmate owners probably feel. Just my .02.

Well actually, he sold out to Genmar who are now officially bankrupt.

-Chris

 

[Rob B]

Well actually, he sold out to Genmar who are now officially bankrupt.

-Chris

LOL, so much for my analogy, huh!! Oh well I tried.

 

[karzrus]

LOL, so much for my analogy, huh!! Oh well I tried.

But the point that something vital can be lost when a business sells is true.

 

[Rob B]

But the point that something vital can be lost when a business sells is true.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make ,not realizing the Forrest had sold the company.

 

[Chris]

LOL, so much for my analogy, huh!! Oh well I tried.

Actually I understood what you were getting at.

One thing that might be worth pointing out is, that it was actually Brunswick that controlled Baja during most of the years which many of you seem to associate with overdone, trendy graphics, mass-production and questionable build quality - it wasn't Doug Smith.

If you look back at the old Baja brochures, during Doug's tenure, the designs were more in-keeping with what Checkmate were also doing during that time.

Personally, I think some of the graphics that have come out of the Checkmate factory over the last few years have been pretty nice. And for those who prefer older style stuff, that's still available as well.

The recent new Convincor pics that I posted are proof of that.

-Chris

 

[Big Red]

Let's try this angle; if Forrest Wood the owner of the Legendary Ranger bassboats sold out to the owner astro boats. What kind of boat do you think would be built then? Not as good as a Forrest Wood built Ranger, why because Rangers are built one at the time not mass produced like other boats. Forrest Wood has been building Ranger bassboats for over 40 yrs, he didn't sell out. What he did was listen to his customers and used the latest innovations to build a better boat. He's still in business today, so Checkmate could've done the same thing instead of selling out to Doug Smith. This is how the most loyal Checkmate owners probably feel. Just my .02.

I think the main reason Bill sold out was, because he was getting tired. I do belive he was playing this game since the 60's. To be honest I really think Bill did a smart thing being the economy took a dump rite after he sold out.

Why Bill's son's did not take over well that's a mystery to me. But I belive I do know the reason.

 

[Chris]

I don't know if any of you ever read this industry article - I thought you might like too.

http://www.tradeonly-digital.com/tradeonly/200705?pg=38#pg38

-Chris

 

[Check This]

Chris - You are right it was brunswick that put the last few nails in the coffin at Baja but that was comming with or with out Brunswick. A terminal cancer is fatal - Doctors can make a patient feel better live a little longer but they are dying thats it.
Today reality is perception (in reverse) -- The fact is this we are writing and people are talking about this subject which I said before will always join these two companies -- The fact that they are not only building Baja's and incorperating the Checkmate name on them but they are taking the original checkmate and jamming baja ideas into them. This never bothered me when I thought they were keeping things seperate. I just believed they were and are trying to appeal to what was once the baja market. They have taken it a step further by taking what is sacred to most of us and commiting the motal sin and combining it with what we hate and have for years --the inigma called baja.
Sorry Chris but like Bill Murray once said "thats the fact jack"

 

[Big Red]

Well the saying goes you cant teach a old dog new tricks.

 

[Reed]

Pre-Beckmate

I believe that ~ Old School~ is the way to go so.... if I wanted a boat bigger than my Trimate II I would pay Cooper to build me his version 1st to keep the true checkmate ~ spirit~ alive..
It's all about~ style-n-performance~

~Plus what Blue Collar boy can afford a 100,000.00$ boat~ Sheeesh

 

[ezstriper]

well my thought are this, a lot of the older checkmate graphics were about the worst I've ever seen, sorry, only a few were acceptable to me, so the newer designs, even though baja related are a big plus in my opinion. second in my area they sold a ton of baja's for many years...I've always said they were the bayliner of performance boats, and that is also what killed them, their customer base has been hit the hardest by the economy...thats what pretty much did them in...and last who the hell can afford a new boat these days ?? can't afford to keep the one I have ?? and I know there are many in the same boat...no pun intended....Rob

 

[Rob B]

From what the article said; Smith filed bankruptcy prior to selling Baja to Brunswick and stayed on as president until 2000. So the Smith era Baja's was in a tailspin and Brunswick finished them off. What's the chances of him doing this to Checkmate? The truth be known is that Smith couldn't compete with Checkmate so he bought them instead. Or maybe I misread the article.

 

[Rob B]

From what the article said; Smith filed bankruptcy prior to selling Baja to Brunswick and stayed on as president until 2000. So the Smith era Baja's was in a tailspin and Brunswick finished them off. What's the chances of him doing this to Checkmate? The truth be known is that Smith couldn't compete with Checkmate so he bought them instead. Or maybe I misread the article.

I should add that I don't mean any disrespect to Doug or the Combs brothers. In the perfect world the Checkmate business would've been handed down to the son's to continue the tradition of well built boats. I think with them running the business some fresh graphics and new innovations incorporated to keep up with today's market Checkmate would be fine without the Baja infusion.

 

[yellowfiero88]

Lets be honest, checkmate went from a 20 million to under a 2 million business. With those numbers things were not looking good. I would say a lot of that was the fact that boats are so expensive now. I would say the cost can go all the way to the government and EPA regulations. I know the body shop industry has also taken the same blow on materials. I HATE TO SAY IT, but on those numbers, checkmate is in a downward spiral. I don't care how red you get about it, the stats will show that if business continued as it did, checkmate would be history. Maybe they might have pulled out of it if the economy recovered as the same old checkmate.

What is the unfair and uneducated statement as well is that if checkmate was to fail now, most would blame it 100% on Doug Smith. But in fact they have been in a downward spiral for a while (due to economy, not quality IMO)

Checkmate has for many years built a great boat. A lot of the same people are still there building boats the same as before. With a good mold, 2 different boats will come out depending on how they are built, either great or crap. If the guys building great boats are still building them, chances are they will still be great. They will just have a more modern look and modern graphics. Lets be honest while we are on in, there is only a few people out there that go for the vintage look on a boat. Most like a boat that looks new so that new looking boat will sell quicker than a "vintage" or "heritage" edition.

Either way you look at it, 1~the "beckmate" dead horse is starting to stink. 2~I can't justify a $100K boat, ever(unless my numbers hit!). 3~ I hope checkmate does what they have to in order to survive as long as its not compromising quality. 4~ If you all were true checkmate fans, you would stand behind the company as they do behind us. If not sell your mate and buy something else and quit crying about it

 

[karzrus]

Lets be honest, checkmate went from a 20 million to under a 2 million business. With those numbers things were not looking good. I would say a lot of that was the fact that boats are so expensive now. I would say the cost can go all the way to the government and EPA regulations. I know the body shop industry has also taken the same blow on materials. I HATE TO SAY IT, but on those numbers, checkmate is in a downward spiral. I don't care how red you get about it, the stats will show that if business continued as it did, checkmate would be history. Maybe they might have pulled out of it if the economy recovered as the same old checkmate.

What is the unfair and uneducated statement as well is that if checkmate was to fail now, most would blame it 100% on Doug Smith. But in fact they have been in a downward spiral for a while (due to economy, not quality IMO)

Checkmate has for many years built a great boat. A lot of the same people are still there building boats the same as before. With a good mold, 2 different boats will come out depending on how they are built, either great or crap. If the guys building great boats are still building them, chances are they will still be great. They will just have a more modern look and modern graphics. Lets be honest while we are on in, there is only a few people out there that go for the vintage look on a boat. Most like a boat that looks new so that new looking boat will sell quicker than a "vintage" or "heritage" edition.

Either way you look at it, 1~the "beckmate" dead horse is starting to stink. 2~I can't justify a $100K boat, ever(unless my numbers hit!). 3~ I hope checkmate does what they have to in order to survive as long as its not compromising quality. 4~ If you all were true checkmate fans, you would stand behind the company as they do behind us. If not sell your mate and buy something else and quit crying about it

Well, I don't like picking on the "Beckmate" thing but I guess I have to some degree(It's an easy target). I guess for each of us what makes a CM is different, for me it's not the horse head decal, although I do like the logo. I want to say it's the lines of the boats but they have changed over the years with all the different models so it's hard to pick out one or two features and say thats a CM(like the portholes on a Buick's front fenders) but I think it's the long tapered bow and top deck that stand out for me (I'm a big fan of Enchanters, Convincors and the Pulsaires)
I have always liked the side stripe that carried through many years with the name in the fat part at the back and how the lines of the boat were part of it for many years. It's dated now so it needs an update but could be retained in some form.

As for the strength of the company before DS bought it we really don't know the whole story even with the various articles. It may have been ready to die or well positioned in a greatly reduced economy. If I was buying I would want to buy low as DS did and I would want to buy something of quality with great chance to grow. Not something that was all but dead.

 

[Kip Combs]

Lets be honest, checkmate went from a 20 million to under a 2 million business. With those numbers things were not looking good. I would say a lot of that was the fact that boats are so expensive now. I would say the cost can go all the way to the government and EPA regulations. I know the body shop industry has also taken the same blow on materials. I HATE TO SAY IT, but on those numbers, checkmate is in a downward spiral. I don't care how red you get about it, the stats will show that if business continued as it did, checkmate would be history. Maybe they might have pulled out of it if the economy recovered as the same old checkmate.

What is the unfair and uneducated statement as well is that if checkmate was to fail now, most would blame it 100% on Doug Smith. But in fact they have been in a downward spiral for a while (due to economy, not quality IMO)

Checkmate has for many years built a great boat. A lot of the same people are still there building boats the same as before. With a good mold, 2 different boats will come out depending on how they are built, either great or crap. If the guys building great boats are still building them, chances are they will still be great. They will just have a more modern look and modern graphics. Lets be honest while we are on in, there is only a few people out there that go for the vintage look on a boat. Most like a boat that looks new so that new looking boat will sell quicker than a "vintage" or "heritage" edition.

Either way you look at it, 1~the "beckmate" dead horse is starting to stink. 2~I can't justify a $100K boat, ever(unless my numbers hit!). 3~ I hope checkmate does what they have to in order to survive as long as its not compromising quality. 4~ If you all were true checkmate fans, you would stand behind the company as they do behind us. If not sell your mate and buy something else and quit crying about it

Well said !

 

[mkhammer]

Personally I feel these molds had to go somewhere Checkmate was the best candidate to pick it up. Baja flooded the west coast as well
Look who went down with Baja (Fountain) and a host of others. If C/M can put the quality back into a Baja mold when the economy turns around and it will one day. I say the will be on top of the game.
The faithful baja owners that can't bring them selves to buy a checkmate may start another sales revolution to own a better quality boat.
Checkmate just has another quality line to offer.
Business is business I'm sure the dicession was made on a finacial basis with a long term goal in mind.


MK

 

[Check This]

I just came back from Diamond marine in Conn. I looked at a 28ZT -- They also had several Baja's there. If you did not look at the hulls themselves you would not be able to tell the difference between the boats by the interiors other then a C/M logo. The Pulsare's are true to form C/M's all the way. No Convincors so I can not comment on that, but nobody is going to tell me different ,that a Baja interior was retrofitted for the ZT model.