1988 Enticer restoration. Advice welcomed.

[Ramifications]

Finally! I guess I just needed to take a little break from it. I got the top off and slid forward without having to cut any fiberglass. After chipping away the Bondo or whatever that stuff is I now have a bidrseye view of the transom. It is encapsulated pretty good. Next I'm going to cut the glass off the top of the transom and see what the wood looks like. I will probably cut the glass that covers the transom on the inside of the boat. I would like to get the transom out in one piece so I have a template. We will see.

I didn't need to remove my transom, so I have no first hand knowledge, but I read in a couple other resto's that wedges work well. I would take two chisels and set them just wider than your wood wedge and drive them in to create a void to start your wedge. Once you have them started, slowly drive them in. I guess sometimes it works and other times it comes out in small pieces...

Here is a link for matching rivets when you are ready to put it back together.
http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jndpdnooo

 

[Rob B]

Scott if you were closer to Charleston I would help you remove the transom. Actually I would help put the transom, stringers and floor back in as well.Once you cut the glass from inside/around the transom perimeter it should come out in one piece. I also used wood wedges to "pop" the transom loose. You want to drive those wedges in a little at a time and listen to the transom seperate from the outer skin. Good luck!!!

 

[Lawson'sLanding]

Todays goal is to seperate the old transom from the hull. Should I cut the glass as close to the edge of the hull as possible or leave a few inches of lip all the way around? I'm still considering using the seacast but I have a feeling OSG is going to talk me out of it. If id do I will need to leave some lip to glass the inside portion of the boat before I pour it in. Notice in the pic how the top bolt holes were barely in the transom wood. There was a void between the wood and the bondo in the splashwell so I'm thinking there is room for the new transom to be a little taller than the old one. I could drill the holes in the same spot but be through the wood entirely.

 

[Rob B]

You can do either because once the transom is out, you'll need to grind the bondo and old fiberglass off. I think you can make the transom taller, but you'll need to do a dry fit (make sure the cap fits) before glassing the new transom back in.

 

[Lawson'sLanding]

I guess the best way to learn how a boat is made is to take one apart.
The transom wood measures 1.5" thick. Looks like 1.25+" of plywood and another layer of .25" plywood. I can't tell yet if the thick piece is one piece or two yet. The wood is not rotten yet but is wet and very heavy. The wood smells just like a saltwater marsh at low tide.

 

[DropTop5.0]

I believe Will30 did a seacast transom. And there is a thred about his resto.

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Scott , i thought i would drop a quick line and hopefully i will be able to talk with today when i get back home and the truth of the matter is .............if you want to use Ses Cast for your transom that is your call , and have i ever done a transom using Sea Cast , no ,and would i , no . Scott , just in case we do not hit base today ,i will E-Mail my home phone number to you very shortly .

 

[Lawson'sLanding]

Thanks for the offer Artie. I will take you up on that offer when I decide what I want to do. As I took this thing apart I saw how strong the original design was. The only reason water got in in the first place was through poorly sealed drain tubes and screws that were not sealed properly. I am leaning toward marine plywood with some knees added. The factory transom had no knees other than the flotation boxes but did have a piece of wood running horizontally across the inside just below the splashwell. My goal was to get the transom out in one piece so I would have a template but I wasn't impressed with the fit of the factory wood. There was gaps on each side that were uneven and the top was 1/2" off between the two sides. I'm probably going to use cardboard to make my own template.I have company coming next week so I won't be able to work on the boat much. I'm looking for answers and a opinions on a couple things.

1) Where do yall buy your marine plywood from and are there different types of marine plywood. I am in Myrtle Beach, I would think I could find it locally.

2) I have several yds of DBM 1708-35 for my floor and it looks like what the transom was tabbed in with. Is this what I would want to seal encapsulate the transom with before tabbing it in? If not then what?

3) If I do build this with plywood and knees, is there anything else I should do if there is a bigger motor in my future?

4) Should I put the horizontal brace back in on top of the knees?

5) If I use two pices of 3/4" plywood joined together should I encapsulate both pieces individualy before I join them or just join/resin/Cabo-sil (not a fan of PL premium) and then glass the outside?

6) What is all of the pink stuff I chipped and grinded away today? Some here call it Bondo. Some say it is Cabo-sil mixed with resin. I'm an automotive guy and it looks like Bondo to me but, even though I own a 10lb bag of Cabosil, I haven't mixed any or seen it yet.

Thanks, Scott

 

[Rob B]

Thanks for the offer Artie. I will take you up on that offer when I decide what I want to do. As I took this thing apart I saw how strong the original design was. The only reason water got in in the first place was through poorly sealed drain tubes and screws that were not sealed properly. I am leaning toward marine plywood with some knees added. The factory transom had no knees other than the flotation boxes but did have a piece of wood running horizontally across the inside just below the splashwell. My goal was to get the transom out in one piece so I would have a template but I wasn't impressed with the fit of the factory wood. There was gaps on each side that were uneven and the top was 1/2" off between the two sides. I'm probably going to use cardboard to make my own template.I have company coming next week so I won't be able to work on the boat much. I'm looking for answers and a opinions on a couple things.

1) Where do yall buy your marine plywood from and are there different types of marine plywood. I am in Myrtle Beach, I would think I could find it locally.

2) I have several yds of DBM 1708-35 for my floor and it looks like what the transom was tabbed in with. Is this what I would want to seal encapsulate the transom with before tabbing it in? If not then what?

3) If I do build this with plywood and knees, is there anything else I should do if there is a bigger motor in my future?

4) Should I put the horizontal brace back in on top of the knees?

5) If I use two pices of 3/4" plywood joined together should I encapsulate both pieces individualy before I join them or just join/resin/Cabo-sil (not a fan of PL premium) and then glass the outside?

6) What is all of the pink stuff I chipped and grinded away today? Some here call it Bondo. Some say it is Cabo-sil mixed with resin. I'm an automotive guy and it looks like Bondo to me but, even though I own a 10lb bag of Cabosil, I haven't mixed any or seen it yet.

Thanks, Scott

Try Lowes or HD if you can't find marine plywood use fir or birch instead. You can use the same mat for the transom, floor, knees and stringers. If you go with 1.5"-2" transom, knees and the horizontal brace you'll be able to hang a bigger motor. You can sanwich the two pieces of plywood together using Cabosil then encapsulate the transom prior to installing in the boat. Lastly that is some type of bondo the factory uses, don't know the technical name for it but they buy it by the 55 gallon drum.

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Scott the pink filler is called DBFor Detriot Body Filler ,and are you thinking of pre making (encapsulating , Knees, Transon board, ect ) prior to actually tabing everything in........... which i think you will find much easier to do in the long run, and might i mention ,or recomended using a marine grade Ply because there is a difference even though it might cost a little more ,and if Lowes . or H D , does not have it in stock they will order it for you which normanlly only takes a few days to get. Scott , whenever i do a transom i always go with two layers of glass sandwiched between the Ply in other words i use two layers of fabric , ply , two layers of fabric , ply and two more layers of fabric with never any CSM at all because if you are going to use a a fabric like #1708 the binder or CSM is already sewn into the back side of the fabric.

 

[Rob B]

OG can you give us a layup schedule for building transoms or how you would do it?

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

First off guys i would not recomend using any CSM because it is a waste of money ,time , and resin . Well ........, depending on the resin everything i do is done using 17oz Bi-Ax , S OR E ,glass considering i only use Epoxy ,and for those people using Poly or Vinyl i would suggest using #1708 and like i mentioned in post # 110 , i normally go with 2 layers of fabric , wood 2 layers of fabric sandwiched between the next piece of wood and , finish up the back side with two more layers of fabric filling all voids , with a putty made from Cabosil , and Resin then completing the transom with mutiple layers of fabric ( #1708 ) staggered around the periimeter usually in seven inch sometimes eight ( wide ) pieces then finishing off all seams that can be seen in the transom area with 4oz finish fabric /chesse cloth just to give the whole lay up a cleaner look which makes it look so much nicer and pleasing to the eye if you know what i mean , and for the knees , and horizontal piece i would go with 2 layers of fabric ( #1708 ) for each piece . Hey guys everything mentioned above is done using # 1708 with the exception of the finish fabric which is 4 oz , and once again that is only used to hide all seams visable to the eye and make everything look pretty .

 

[Rob B]

First off guys i would not recomend using any CSM because it is a waste of money ,time , and resin . Well ........, depending on the resin everything i do is done using 17oz Bi-Ax , S OR E ,glass considering i only use Epoxy ,and for those people using Poly or Vinyl i would suggest using #1708 and like i mentioned in post # 110 , i normally go with 2 layers of fabric , wood 2 layers of fabric sandwiched between the next piece of wood and , finish up the back side with two more layers of fabric filling all voids , with a putty made from Cabosil , and Resin then completing the transom with mutiple layers of fabric ( #1708 ) staggered around the periimeter usually in seven inch sometimes eight ( wide ) pieces then finishing off all seams that can be seen in the transom area with 4oz finish fabric /chesse cloth just to give the whole lay up a cleaner look which makes it look so much nicer and pleasing to the eye if you know what i mean , and for the knees , and horizontal piece i would go with 2 layers of fabric ( #1708 ) for each piece . Hey guys everything mentioned above is done using # 1708 with the exception of the finish fabric which is 4 oz , and once again that is only used to hide all seams visable to the eye and make everything look pretty .

OG thanks for posting the transom layup schedule, I'm sure the guys appreciate it!!

 

[Lawson'sLanding]

Scott the pink filler is called DBFor Detriot Body Filler ,and are you thinking of pre making (encapsulating , Knees, Transon board, ect ) prior to actually tabing everything in........... which i think you will find much easier to do in the long run, and might i mention ,or recomended using a marine grade Ply because there is a difference even though it might cost a little more ,and if Lowes . or H D , does not have it in stock they will order it for you which normanlly only takes a few days to get. Scott , whenever i do a transom i always go with two layers of glass sandwiched between the Ply in other words i use two layers of fabric , ply , two layers of fabric , ply and two more layers of fabric with never any CSM at all because if you are going to use a a fabric like #1708 the binder or CSM is already sewn into the back side of the fabric.

Thanks for the tip on Lowes and Home Depot. I will go by there tommorow. I do plan on doing my glasswork on the transom and knees outside the boat and the using the Cabosil and resin to glue them in then glassing everything to the hull last. That is the way I did my stringer and floor braces. Every piece is glassed and notched and numbered so the actual install should go pretty smooth. The glass work on them is not perfect as I am a novice at this but I was sure that everything got a good coating of resin and voids were filled with a syringe. Artie at the risk of sounding ignorant, let me see if I have this straight. You say to glass the two pieces of plywood seperately with two layers of glass, fasten them together with Cabosil/resin, then two more layers of glass on top of that? This mat i have doesn't like to bend around sharp curves. Should i round the edges of the transom like I did the stringer and wrap the glass around the edge or just glass the flat sides of the transom wood? If I just glass the flat sides then what do I do with the edge? The factory transom wood had glass on the top where it was glassed to the hull but doesn't appear to have been glassed on the sides or bottom where it was sealed with DBF. Also, wouldn't three pieces of 1/2" be stronger than two pieces of 3/4"? And last (for now), The 4oz or the other glass you mentioned, wouldn't that be alot easier to work with for seat bases, battery trays and other nonstructural pieces? Again, I appreciate everyones input and hate to be so long winded but I want to get this as right as I can the first time, but I plan to do this again on a different boat. This is actually fun but next time I will have a boat to drive while I work on the other. Thanks, Scott.

 

[Lawson'sLanding]

Stopped by Lowes tonight and sure enough, I can order marine plywood through them. It will be tommorow before I know a price or can order it because the company they get it from closes at 5pm. I guess I will order a sheet of 3/4" tommorow. Still wondering about using 3 pieces of 1/2" versus 2 pieces of 3/4" for my transom and knees.

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Scott , if i was you i would order 2 sheets of 3/4 , and be done with it, and to tell you the truth ...maybe in the future we should talk by phone so i can help answer more of your questions or explain as in post #114 just so you and i are on the same page but non the less i will shoot you a pm .Take care my friend ..................Artie

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Scott , there is no need to throw yourself under the bus because i know this sort of thing can sometimes be very overwhelming and without trying to sound rude i always go with two layers of fabric sandwiched between the two boards or ply ,and then two more layers of fabric on the top side of the board, along with two more layers of fabric on the flip side or bottom of the transom board which equals to six layers of fabric over all ...... from the top being the first board , to the midlde or in between both board's to the very bottom which is the second board. Hey guy , feel free to ask away because sometimes i feel that i am not addressing or explaining everything perfectly clear in my posts and have sent you an E-Mail .........................

 

[groundloop]

two layers of fabric sandwiched between the two boards or ply

Glass in between the pieces of plywood does nothing to add strength, it's just added weight and expense (I certainly didn't find any glass in the middle of either of the two transoms I've repaired). All that's needed there is good adhesion. I'm saying this from an engineering background - composite structures get their strength mostly from glass being in tension. The center of a composite structure is at zero stress, so there's no strength to be gained by adding structure there. As you go further and further out from the centerline the strength of a material contributes more and more.

I know this might not make sense, it didn't to me at first either, but I've been given the exact same explanation from a two different structural engineers. In fact I've been kind of bored lately so I may do some layups and test them to failure on one of our Instrons at work. I'll post the results sometime in a week or two.

 

[Lawson'sLanding]

Glass in between the pieces of plywood does nothing to add strength, it's just added weight and expense (I certainly didn't find any glass in the middle of either of the two transoms I've repaired). All that's needed there is good adhesion. I'm saying this from an engineering background - composite structures get their strength mostly from glass being in tension. The center of a composite structure is at zero stress, so there's no strength to be gained by adding structure there. As you go further and further out from the centerline the strength of a material contributes more and more.

I know this might not make sense, it didn't to me at first either, but I've been given the exact same explanation from a two different structural engineers. In fact I've been kind of bored lately so I may do some layups and test them to failure on one of our Instrons at work. I'll post the results sometime in a week or two.

I'm not an engineer either so I cannot dispute this claim. My brother is and I will have to get his opinion as well. I'm not sure what you mean by stress exactly but was thinking, wouldn't the two pieces of plywood with glass act like two seperate structures doubled up? I don't know, thats the way I was thinking it might work. That is exactly why I asked a few posts back if 3 pieces of 1/2" plywood glassed would be stronger than 2 pieces of 3/4". I didn't get a response so I bit the bullitt today and ordered 1 sheet of 3/4" marine plywood from Lowes at a cost of $116. OUCH!

 

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Glass in between the pieces of plywood does nothing to add strength, it's just added weight and expense (I certainly didn't find any glass in the middle of either of the two transoms I've repaired). All that's needed there is good adhesion. I'm saying this from an engineering background - composite structures get their strength mostly from glass being in tension. The center of a composite structure is at zero stress, so there's no strength to be gained by adding structure there. As you go further and further out from the centerline the strength of a material contributes more and more.

I know this might not make sense, it didn't to me at first either, but I've been given the exact same explanation from a two different structural engineers. In fact I've been kind of bored lately so I may do some layups and test them to failure on one of our Instrons at work. I'll post the results sometime in a week or two.

Your first problem is...... you have listened to many Engineers ,and second ......they were structural ,and third.... did they have a degree in Marine Engineering ,and fourth .......if that was a Skater ,it would have two maybe three layers of Kevlar , with Fountains , Cigs , and Platinum , using two or three layers of fabric depending on the layup and resin used in the build of the boat ,and here we frikin go again ........... Hey guy , most of the failures in the marine industry structurally are usally the cause of poor engineering which might very well look good on paper but fail in the field which often results in costly repairs untill the proplem is taken care of ,and to tell you the truth every Boat Co that i have ever worked at has done this, and still does .