"TOP SECRET CHECKMATE" PIC'S

[Big Red]

That's a interesting post REMLINGER i always wondered why my boat handled different late in the evening at the lake. Now I no why weight distribution. I keep my beer cooler in the front of the boat. After all day drinking the beer goes from the front of the boat to the mid and back section.

Thanks man the hole time I thought it was me under the influence of alcoholic beverages.

 

[Old Hickory]

I go back to my Shelby Cobra analogy; make the right changes even on a has been; you can see significant improvement.

Correct on the changes making a difference, but looking at the Shelby Cobra changes were tested before they hit the market and proven on the track.

There's the difference. Because they went to Balsa Core construction which lighten the boat, yes this will mean that it will displace less water. However your comment is flawed. These are planner hulls and not displacement hulls. Planner hull design rides on the top of the water where as a displacement hull pushes the water. So in your statement you compared this hull to a freighter and not a power boat such as a Checkmate, Donzi, Fountain...etc.

Lets look at the weight issue. Any changes in weight distribution will drastically change the ride characteristics of the boat. Ask anyone who has removed the foam from their boat or relocated the gas tank, not to mention throughing sand bags in the passenger seat to even out the ride for testing. To light in the front will extend the time that the boat planes out slowing the boats ability to pick up speed and could lead to porposing, chin walk and other instability issues.

Aesthically will the boat sell , I have no dought. Performance wise we have no clue. We cannot make a 1 to 1 correlation between the original Baja and the new Chackmate, the construction, weight, weight distribution has all changed. At this point this is a new boat.

Again I'm questioning the direction for our purpose of supporting Checkmate as well and giving us the information to hammer home to people who bad mouth Checkmates. Think of it this way, you own one of these new boats and a Baja of the same shape pulls up and it's owner says "What did Checkmate run out of Ideas so they had to use a better boat for their new one" whats your answer going to be "Well but it looks better"? Or would you rather spout out facts regarding speed, performance durablity which is all tied to testing and publically avalible data. Looks on there own are not going to cut it on its own.

So lets stop being subjective.

"We are entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts."

I'm a bit confused; you made my point yet said I was flawed. I wasn't referring to hull types; I was referring to displacement. A planing hull still has to overcome it's displacement and the tension/friction created by it in order to get on plane. Regardless of the hulls shape it still has to overcome these forces. Weight reduction; weight distribution(I didn't mention it; but thanks for discussing it) and horse power are the most efficient means to accomplish it. My facts are correct, per your own comment; just talking about a different facet of naval design and the forces that effect it. You were flawed in your assumptions.

Second; My Carroll Shelby analogy isn't flawed either because we are comparing apples to oranges. Race car developement vs a change in hull lay up and construction. It could be construed as laughable; but my analogy simply referred to taking an old design, adding something new and thus improving it's performance. There was no attempt to make a nuts and bolts comparison; just one of principle. Again, you are flawed in your assumptions. BTW Shelby didn't test to nearly the standards we have today in racing. In 1959, 60, 61 some in nascar were still runnin' shine Expediency and a little redneck engineering were the order of the day.

Regarding checkmate; whats to test? They lightned the hull, of a arguably sound design, that has already proven itself. By doing what they did; they avoid the legal and regulatory requirements necessary to introduce a new boat to the market(that current process is a bit ambiguous and we could contribute a whole thread on it's merits). I have no argument with you; I'm just not trying to overthink this. I was just having a little fun with RED.

In the end, we come close to making a similar summation...... mine is a bit simpler..... lets just wait and see.

Hick

 

[remlinger]

Hick, just think in another 262 post we may all just be on the same page and able to agree on something.

Riggerous debate! No harm or ill feeling towards your comments. Neither yours or my analogies were 100% flawed or 100% factual. As I have found out in the past, Blogs, texts and emails limits information and is usually not the proper discussion media for debate.

Heres a thought; is there a way we can get the new ZT and a 2008 ZT with the same power plant, amount of gas, passengers....etc. to run side by side. I see no other way to make a better comparison and put this thread to rest.

Also does Checkmate pole a select group of it's loyal customers on design and direction decissions? Meaning "US" and not just dealers or individuals who may have a finiancial stake in the company. Seems odd that at a boat show you only see what is avalible on the market vs. say the Internation Auto Show which displays concepts which depending on the response can go into product with in a year.

Thanks

 

[Old Hickory]

no disagreement here; never had one to begin with; I'm not cheerleading checkmate and I have scratched my head wondering "What was DS thinking ?" (truth be known; BR's observations will probably not be far from the truth). I'm just hopeful for checkmates sake.

Hick

 

[bravo 1]

I have read this whole thread about the new boats that checkmate has come out with and dont under stand why some people are so up set with checkmate. A couple years ago i got ripped on this site for asking why there is so much bashing between Baja and checkamte. I just wanted to know why and the big response to this was that the build quality on the Bajas where junk, cookie cutter, spray gun, boats with bad graphics, and color choices. Now a couple of these boats are beeing built by CM shouldnt the above staements not matter all that should matter is that checkmate built and there is no other builder out there that does it as good. The new 244 does not appeal to me but that is just my opinion not because it was a Baja mold but just because i dont like the styling of the boat. But as a business decision I think it was a good one for CM to do it lets them try and get more of a market share with alot less hassle and money spent. So be gentle with me fellas when you respond to this I am just getting over the last arse chewing I got on here HAHAHAHAHAH

Check Ya later

 

[remlinger]

I have read this whole thread about the new boats that checkmate has come out with and dont under stand why some people are so up set with checkmate. A couple years ago i got ripped on this site for asking why there is so much bashing between Baja and checkamte. I just wanted to know why and the big response to this was that the build quality on the Bajas where junk, cookie cutter, spray gun, boats with bad graphics, and color choices. Now a couple of these boats are beeing built by CM shouldnt the above staements not matter all that should matter is that checkmate built and there is no other builder out there that does it as good. The new 244 does not appeal to me but that is just my opinion not because it was a Baja mold but just because i dont like the styling of the boat. But as a business decision I think it was a good one for CM to do it lets them try and get more of a market share with alot less hassle and money spent. So be gentle with me fellas when you respond to this I am just getting over the last arse chewing I got on here HAHAHAHAHAH

Check Ya later

Bravo, read the last few posts by myself and Hick. I think these some up what we're getting at. As a marketing direction and appealing to larger group of poeple there is nothing wrong. It's at the speed at which it was done. Yes CM has a supperior build. But small changes in weight can affect the ridability extremely, ask BR regarding the shifting of beer from cooler at the nose to his waist at the mid section of the boat . So without testing or hard data no one is sure if it performs at the standards CM is known for. More than likely it probably does. But as concerned loyal owners we want to be sure. As stated in my last post, lets put an '08 up against an '09 and see who runs better.

So was a gentle enough?

remlinger

 

[bravo 1]

Hey Remlinger,
I would really like to see the 2 run side by side would be a really good test, and like you said there has not been any water tests yet so we dont really know how the new 244 will performm, maybe it just might out perform the old 24 but only time will tell this story. I still think that it was a good business decision to purchase the mold and build the boat if it is a flop at least they wont have as much money tied into its demise

 

[Trevor Wolf]

I hope Chackmate doesnt change to the baja setup! I am not a fan of baja's at all. If they do this will probably be my last mate ....

 

[throttletherapy]

Love the avatar Red.......We bought checkmates for a reason....to NOT have a baja and be like everybody else......and wave as we fly by them.

I agree ive been around checkmates for a long time, been to the factory a couple of times and bill combs has been in my area, and i just hope doug smith comes up with some original ideas and doesnt go back to his old roots! the only thing i see different on the photos above is the gel color. I hope if this is the route he is taking they do something with the hulls, because my buddy had the h2 baja and it rode like a piece of ply wood across the water, it would beat you to death.

 

[WILDMAN]

Does'nt anyone realize that the 24BRX is a completely new boat that was done after Doug bought Checkmate! That boat took ALOT of time and tooling to make an interior that complex. The 24 BRX is also being made into an I/O boat.

 

[throttletherapy]

Does'nt anyone realize that the 24BRX is a completely new boat that was done after Doug bought Checkmate! That boat took ALOT of time and tooling to make an interior that complex. The 24 BRX is also being made into an I/O boat.

yes i/we do, and that is what i meant i hope doug comes up with some original ideas instead of ideas from a company he used to own back in the day

 

[throttletherapy]

Does'nt anyone realize that the 24BRX is a completely new boat that was done after Doug bought Checkmate! That boat took ALOT of time and tooling to make an interior that complex. The 24 BRX is also being made into an I/O boat.

have you seen the pics of comparing the 244 and the baja h2x, its nearly the same boat!

 

[Wide Open]

Ya know, It's funny how this started as a few friends poking each other and voicing there opinion and then you have one guy start calling names and being a total a$$(could be talking about my self?). Anyway, Baja did sell alot of these boats because someone liked the looks. They went out of business because of poor quality and warranty issues. If they had built a quality product, like Checkmate does, they would still be around. I have owned 5 new Checkmate's and if I buy another, it won't be the 244ZT. But what is wrong with making this style available to those who do like it. They make different things for different people. Every one is free to make there own choice and I will never have to walk in another man's shoes being responsible for the decisions that he makes. Only the ones I make. And by the way BIG R, if I can get my motta running right, I'll be down this summer. I still owe you a burger and a beer! boatman

Agreed Boatman! Baja DID indeed sell the $hi+ out of their boats, and it was for several factors. 1. People did like them. 2. They were affordable. And 3. The performance for the dollar was spot on. But let's keep something else in mind (sorry I have to come to the defense of the brand), Baja did NOT go out of business....Brunswick sold them. Why? Because Brunswick is a huge corporate business, and they (like any other large corporate business) CONSTANTLY do market studys. The "performance boat" market has been on a downhill slide for several years. When somenting like that happens, you dump what's dragging you down (or no longer prifitable) and move forward investing in what WILL pay the bills. It's that simple.
At the end of the 2006 model year, Baja made up 37% of the performance boat market! THIRTY SEVEN PERCENT!!! That's HUGE! The #2 and #3 slots were filled by Fountain and Donzi respectively. And they tied at 7.5%. Seems logical that Reggie would want to scoop up the largest selling boat brand in that category. Even if he does nothing with the brand....his biggest competitor is gone!
Checkmate has had very little interest in their sterndrive models. Why? Maybe because they are somewhat dated? Maybe because of lack of advertising? Maybe because of features compared toother brands? Who knows?? Checkmate appears to be making a step to refresh some of what has not been doing well for them for quite some time. I believe you can read Dougs mission statement on factory website that states something about bringing some exciting new changes and new products to the market with the company now being under his ownership? Guess what? He's doing it! While others are failing miserably....Checkmate is at LEAST making a valiant attempt to move forward. Hat's off to you Doug for staying true to your promise.

 

[TEAMBAJAMARINE]

have you seen the pics of comparing the 244 and the baja h2x, its nearly the same boat!

This is a funny post right there. Nope, didnt even notice the resemblence.

 

[yellowfiero88]

I dont think they look too bad, but I would take my old beat up enchanter over a new one any day of the week.

One thing is for sure, BOO TO TEAMBAJAMARINE.COM you must pay to just do a simple search. That aint happening here. I dont mind joining a forum but I want to search around a little to see if its worth joining first.

 

[srtoutlaw]

Okay it's warm in Florida YEA!

I would like to look at this new model from a R&D approach. To start here are a few qustions. Additional questions that these develope should be added.

1. Are there any reports by third party testing agencies (surveys) regarding the longevity of the Baja hull being used?

2. Did Checkmate test the hull developed by Baja with their method of hand laid glass/ balsacore for the construction system for any lengthy period of time prior to sending it onto the market?

3. If flaws, in the original design, existed, then what did Checkmate do to correct them, if anything?

Side Note:

It is one thing to use a hull for its known durability and reputation (reason why Checkmate molds are used) but if it was used for fast production and insertion into a market to just compete for sales, then this could result in tarnished reputation if these flaws begin to emerge under private use. And worse if they resulting in injury.

Well Checkmate does have the 10 year warranty on all its hulls so that is some good reassurance that they believe in their product. On the other hand with the way this country is going economically maybe Bill baja or whatever his name is, picked a bad time to get back in the boat business and checkmate might not exist in 2 or 3 years and then that warranty is not worth the paper its printed on!

See guys I am "THAT GUY", the new buyer who doesn't or at least didn't now any better. And I was hot to pull the trigger on a new ZT 244. But now that I have read some about the boat here and at Off Shore Only I am really starting to second guess myself. My criteria for a 'NEW' boat is 24' Big block bravo drive merc and it has to cost less than 60 thousand! Now I also really like the ZT 240, 'Infact I like it more as I also perfer the old school', and there are a few on the internet but they seem a good but more expensive like 75 thousand and thats with small block power!

And there is the rub. What to do. If any of you now where there is a new Big Block ZT 240 for under 60K then let me know as I am ready to buy!

But again I always liked the look of the Baja's and was about to jump on the New ZT 244 I was looking at. But I don't want a "heavy slow hull that can't break 60 M.P.H. with big block power"! I want to go fast!

But anything is a step up from my 22' Chris craft bow rider I have been rocking for the last 20 years.... But seriously do you guys have any advise to give me?

 

[yellowfiero88]

But seriously do you guys have any advise to give me?

If your not dead set on a new boat, you will not find a nicer one around
http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17919
Plus you will have an extra $40K in your pocket That can go a long way to getting a lot more power and speed out of the boat

 

[WILDMAN]

QUOTE: And there is the rub. What to do. If any of you now where there is a new Big Block ZT 240 for under 60K then let me know as I am ready to buy!

Time to put your money where your keyboard is! Call me! I'll put you in a new 2011 ZT240 with big block for $60K! Days-386-761-8050, Home-386-788-4378

 

[jln]

that sounds like a great deal,the msrp on my 08 zt240 with a 6.2 320hp bravo 1 and pretty much loaded up on a venture aluminum trailer was 75k, i paid about 55k last fall , i bought it as a leftover and really liked the colors. orange and black, Wildmans deal is great . good luck the zt240 is a hot looking boat, my boat runs low 60's but i have hit 65gps with a light load and 1.5 ft chop and at 3500rpm im going about 45 and burning 7 gph. im very happy with the 6.2 where i boat anything above 65 in my size boat and you may end up hurt, i spent 5 yrs in the coast guard on a rescue boat. there are two 496 big blocks so im thinking the price is for the 375. should maybe hit 70

 

[WILDMAN]

GEEZ!! The guy wants a new big block ZT24 for $60K and I offer it to him. Now he disappears! WTF!! I was really lookin forward to the $900 I was gonna make!